The Culturally Intelligent Safety Professional Episode 5 Lessons from Nature

We go deep this week as we connect with Rachel Elliot who explores her deep passion for the environment and how this has guided her in the work she has done in health and safety. From a leader with Cadet Forces influencing teenagers on leadership and risk, to health and safety roles across a range of different sectors Rachel explores what drives her, what has influenced her and her zeal for learning.

Rachel leads us through personal stories of supporting her partner as a dirt track racer to the more intrinsic motivation she gets from participating in Mau rākau (Māori martial arts). She reflects on being mentored by Nippin Anand and the excitement of a future meeting of “her tribe” when she travels to Australia later this year for several days of deep learning. Rachel reflects on the importance of listening and after the podcast recording shared with me a favorite Whakataukī (Māori proverb), Te tīmatanga o te mātauranga ko te wahangū te wāhanga tuarua ko te whakarongo, which translates as The first stage of learning is silence, the second stage is listening.

Rachel shares links to from those who influenced her journey which we have listed below for those who want to follow up.

Harold Hillman (leadership coaching) = Sigmoid Consulting  https://www.sigmoidcurve.co.nz/

Dr. Rachel McInnes (values journey) = https://drrachelmcinnes.wordpress.com/

The ladder of Inference:

·         Developed by Chris Argyris in 1990

·         Popularized by Peter Senge in the book ‘The Fifth Discipline’

https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachel-elliott-21a33079/

Transcript

Greg: 0:01

Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the culturally intelligence safety professional, a podcast aimed at providing a platform whereby safety professionals can develop a pathway to enhance their cultural intelligence capability, which will in turn, help them function more effectively when working in a multicultural situation. I'm Greg Dearsly your host and I have a range of guests lined up to talk to this year. We have people with experience across leadership psychology, health and safety, education, and of course cultural intelligence. All of our guests come from a wide range of different backgrounds across the diversity spectrum, including from different organizational contexts. In this podcast you'll hear stories aimed at helping you the listener enhance your cultural intelligence, you'll gain an understanding of how you can create trust when working in diverse environments, and quite frankly, that's all the time. No matter how homogenous the place you work at might be, it is still full of diversity, people with different backgrounds, experiences, and beliefs, all built on there figured world. Today, I'm talking with Rachel Elliott. Rachelis's going to talk about her passion for culture and learning. She's a health and safety professional who has worked in a range of industries from oil and gas to transport, waste and education. She's deeply interested in indigenous cultures and people. Kia ora, Rachel, lovely to have you on the podcast.

Rachel: 1:39

Kia ora Greg, and thank you for inviting me on.

Greg: 1:43

No problem, so let's just get straight into it, shall we, you and I have known each other for a reasonable amount of time and I just thought maybe it's a good opportunity for you to introduce yourself to the audience, tell us a little bit about who you are and what your story is and how you've ended up where you are today.

Rachel: 2:03

Thanks Greg. Ko Rachel Elliot ahou. I was conceived in Pongakawa Valley, and I was born in Porirua, and I moved to Mangawhai at the age of eight and have been there ever since. My mother, Gillian, was born in Zambia, Africa, and my father, Harry, was born in Whananaki, north of Whangarei. I have a deep passion for the environment and people, people are an innate part of the environment. I feel blessed and thankful that I had the opportunity to grow up very much in touch with the environment and in a rural sort of setting. All the practicalities as well that go along with growing up rural. Which I think have helped me in my health and safety practice as well going along having that sort of bit of knowledge and practicality. I, have done a variety of things, as you said, different workplaces but also in the volunteer space and just in life in general so you know, like my partner used to race dirt tracks, so I used to be pit crew for him for a while and things like that I've pig hunted in the bush, but also in my volunteer space, I was really lucky to have wound up being involved with New Zealand Cadet Forces, so I was an Army Cadet Officer for 15 years which was just such a rewarding experience working with at the time, 13 to 18 year olds, it's now 13 to 21 year olds. But remembering at the time going through the leadership training and stuff they were getting was the same stuff that, I remember our leadership at the refinery was going and these guys were getting this insight and knowledge, at 15 years old, when they were first going on there. So just what an awesome thing, and I think I learned so much more from the cadets than I ever taught them.

Greg: 3:56

I'm sure they learned plenty from you, Rachel.

Rachel: 4:00

And what a neat organization it is in the learning opportunities they gave me as well, doing my adult education training and all that sort of stuff was all through cadet forces. That, combined in with work. So one of the other things I do is I live in the ngahere it's where, I love, as I said, love the environment grew up on the coast, but the ngahere or the bush for those people overseas, the forest is where my heart sings. That, connection, that time, that energy that you get from there. And I think, my love of the environment and that heavily also influences my health and safety practice.

Greg: 4:36

So that cadetship time, was that before you got into health and safety or during

Rachel: 4:43

During it was when, during my time at the refinery, and that was some of the stuff that we actually went through. with cadets, as well. So they weren't only learning leadership, some of the modules we went through were risk based modules. So we were taking them through exercises where they were having to think about what hazards were around them and how they might work their way through a particular scenario. And those skills of thinking with a risk mindset, if that makes sense. So you actually think going into something and thinking, you're not thinking doom and gloom, but you're thinking, okay, if, what could go wrong here? What could happen if I did this? And I've always loved the definition of risk I learned through Cadet Forces as well, which was in relation to outdoor activities. And that was that it's the ability to lose or gain something of value. I think sometimes in health and safety we get too focused on risk being a bad thing. And actually, without risk we don't learn. So I think if we can eliminate and minimize critical, the nasty stuff, what is it in Todd Conklin's terms, the sticky stuff, that's the stuff that kills you, but not all risk is bad.

Greg: 5:55

I think you hear that a lot, don't you, about risks and opportunities. What are the good things from this scenario and what opportunities can we gain from it. And maybe that's what's missing, as you say, from the New Zealand's landscape is it's all very negatively focused but there are opportunities in risk as well. And so you did some time at Marsden Point and the refinery and anything else you want to tell us about from your health and safety career and I guess how that crosses over into some of your environmental and nature focused interests.

Rachel: 6:38

So yes, I was lucky to have been at the refinery, and I do consider myself really lucky to have been at the refinery during a time of it was just really, I suppose flow, is one of the best ways to describe it, a real great connection and flow. Management was supportive, not only of health and safety, but also they understood that growing their people was good for business. We had an amazing team, a really supportive management and we just had huge leaps and bounds forward in the health and safety space and when I reflect on it now, some amazing people that I had the opportunity to work with too, and a huge range of health and safety professionals as well, because you had so many different contracting companies so for someone starting out in the health and safety field, it was just a wonderful place to absorb and learn and you also very much learnt a lot of what I will call, traditional health and safety which still has value and and so I think, yeah, it's not about one or the other, it's what are the good things, what can we keep of that was good and learn as we progress. But one of the key things when I reflect back was most of our advances in health and safety actually didn't come from the work of health and safety as such, they actually came from the growing our people space. So we had several things going on at the same time, we had a learning organization project going on. We had a values project going on as well. So with that, we had the organization's values, but we also had a whole piece of work that was, people were given time and on a training course to explore what their own values were. And then the learning organization stuff, we were taken through different theories, like one, there's a couple that stick in my mind. And I think, Harold Hillman was someone who worked with the crew or the leadership at the time and some of the things we went through were like the the ladder of inference model we went through, and I still use it to this day of left hand and right hand, we called it left hand column and right hand column, I'm probably going to get it back to front now, but the right hand column is what you say, but your left hand column is what you're thinking, but don't say. And in that time, we created our own language in some ways at the Refinery, and I think that was also a key thing in the health and safety, that's where, I think it's when we started having all these things and health and safety wasn't in isolation anymore and it was actually just good practice I think that's, definitely where our largest increase in the safety space was. So an example of our language was, we'd say, oh, share your left hand column with us and everyone knew what that meant, or when it came to the ladder of inference, we would have a joke and say to people, Oh, you're not jumping off the ladder, are you? So meaning you're not jumping to conclusions or assumptions and it was cool because everyone understood it and knew. And part of that as well as we were also given coaching and management was also given the same coaching first. Because how we respond matters. So they were given coaching to ensure that when, we as staff came to them with an issue that they also responded in a way that made us feel that we could do that again. And we were coached in how to approach, so not generalizing, being specific not saying you always do this or you never do this, but actually being specific. And so that opened up communication as well, and people started having better dialogue together and feeling that they could share and talk. And so I suppose it, it goes into something like Rosa Carillo's work that she's done in that space. And I think, that for me is one of my key takeaways is that, language matters, what we say matters, how we say it matters, and I think, our words shape our world and so what we say and how we say it to ourself and each other is so important.

Greg: 10:37

I think that's a really interesting point actually that not only that external dialogue when you're engaging with others, but the internal dialogue that you have with yourself which a lot of the time creates roadblocks for yourself and defaults that, Oh, I'm always, I always do it that way. And it's generally a negative thing, when you're having that internal dialogue. And it's about trying to, understand that and reflect on why you think that. And understand it and if it is a negative thing then, flip it, as they say, that's really interesting. I noticed you got the response matters which we know is a little bit of a term from from the HOP brand, I think I agree with you that, safety one, safety two, doesn't matter, it's just one tool in the toolbox and they're all relevant and we're starting to see lots of conversation around that, aren't we? Just stop bagging the other and just really just focus on the people.

Rachel: 11:33

Absolutely.

Greg: 11:34

You and I have been doing some stuff recently, probably over the last six months or so with with Nippon and Pedro and, we've got the iCue Cafe going on, and then we did this thing over the last couple of months with our risk intelligence group. What value have those discussions brought to you as we've worked through some of the things that those guys are talking about?

Rachel: 11:54

I think there's so much value and I get as the sessions are generally held on in an evening because it's with UK time, and then I struggle to sleep afterwards because I'm so energized and enthused from the learning. But yeah they've been hugely helpful and it's interesting. The last couple of years have been just a huge time of kind of I suppose, some would call it synchronicity, in my life, where there's so many pieces of the puzzle that are coming together and complementing each other. And the iCue methodology, and the Risk intelligence practice, we were going through is no exception in that space. If I reflect back to when I first met Nippin, NZISM had the masterclass series on the Costa Concordia and from there I was one of six who were lucky enough to have be mentored by Nippin for a while, and then from there, the relationship and the learning and that has just continued to grow. And one of the key things Nippin has taught me is to not fear the challenge, to embrace challenge, to, even if it feels uncomfortable and difficult. And one of my old bosses actually from the refinery used to say to me, Rachel, it doesn't have to be perfect. So I was a person who fell into that trap a lot and because of that mindset shied away from challenge to some extent. And I think, yeah, Carol Dweck's got a good book on that mindset, explains a lot. But yeah so Nippin did, challenge me in our online sessions and that and, but taught me to embrace it. And that has been my, one of my biggest learnings. There's been so many others too. And one of the, I think one of the key things is around the listening space. And I was actually reflecting the other day in relation to because something else that I have started doing since working at North Tech, Te Pukenga is I have also started, to become a student of Mau rākau, which is Māori martial arts, essentially using the stick or the rākau. As with any martial art, it's not just the practical side, it's, there's the whole mind side as well. And, so I suppose where I'm going with this is that, it connects in, also that practice connects in with some of the stuff that we're doing in the iCue space because there's the language of the rākau which is, the language of the martial art. And I love the iCue methodology because I feel that it is one that truly crosses cultural barriers because it's actually based on truly listening and the more, open questions you ask, or the more open they are, the more you remove your own bias from it, because, like the things we pick up and the things that, stick out to us, of course, are influenced by our own biases. So the more we try and listen, but also help to try and surface the unconscious of the other person, the more we remove our bias from the picture as well.

Greg: 15:13

Yeah, I think, and if you think about some of those sessions that and some of the things that Nippin talks about, whether it be in those sessions or on some of his podcasts, his first question is generally not really a question, it's an opportunity for the other person, he says, where do you want to start? And then I guess things flow from there. And the iCue thing very much is about listening and being curious about phrases and words and the way people say things and what they might mean and we talk, about headspace and group space and workspace and where has that word come from, or where has that phrase come from? And it is a truly listening process. How do you think that stuff, just, diving a little bit deeper into that, what influence has that had directly on your work as a safety professional?

Rachel: 16:04

There's one thing I'll touch on in that space first and then I'll go to that question is that for me is that understanding of the listening isn't just in the verbal space. So we have body language, there's all sorts of different language. So I mentioned before the language of the rākau, so maurākau. I've done sessions, on LinkedIn I call lessons from nature, and it's same thing. The bush has its own language and it's when we actually really take the time to listen and really tune in and connect, so whether it's connecting with the person and just really tuning in, that's when, you're picking up on so many other languages, the body language the things they say, and the other side of that is that also links in for me because it links so beautifully with a lot of indigenous theory and knowledge from around the world. And so yeah, for me and how it works directly in my health and safety practices is, that's how I approach people and I reflect back now on some of, things from the past and how I approach things in the past and go, wow, how differently that could have gone if I actually went in not feeling like I have to say something and that have to have the answer or, I think that sometimes that, as health and safety people, people come to us expecting that we should know everything and we, I've learnt it's okay to not have that knowledge and it's actually a good thing to know when you don't know and get someone else that does. But also that truly listening we actually ran a session at work the other day with one of our teams and it was just amazing, the stuff that, surfaced, that if we had gone in there asking specific questions it would never have come up. I think allowing people to just talk through and go off on tangents here and there if they needed, it triggered something else in the thought for someone else. And so I think one, how I approach people, but also when when working with teams that whole dignity, respect and connection.

Greg: 18:23

I know you're you're heading off to Canberra soon for a bit of a workshop or conference or I'm not too sure what seminar or gathering. I'm not sure what it is, but the social psychology of risk conference with Rob Long and Nippin's going to be there, I think he's launching his book, and Rosa Carrillo, going to be there and Pedro and all of these people that that we seem to follow around, around the place with their books and their podcasts and their presentations. What are you looking forward to about that trip?

Rachel: 18:53

Oh, I am so excited, the minute I saw that it come out, it was, yeah, I knew I had to do what I could to try and get there. So excited. So many different things. One just being in that environment with those people you'll absorb wisdom and knowledge, just from being around them. But yeah, and really looking forward to the connection. So one of the, things I think I've mentioned to you before, Greg is I feel like I've found my tribe as such. That makes sense, that connection. Because I've always been a little bit different when it comes to the health and safety space, and yeah I feel like I've found, and that's not because people agree with me or it's actually probably the opposite. It's that, challenge and discussion and expansion of ideas and I think it's just going to be a wonderful week of all of that.

Greg: 19:48

Yes. I would have loved to have been there, but fortunately or unfortunately I've got to be somewhere else. That's one that I'm going to miss out on, but look forward to hearing all about it after the event. Look, I guess we're almost at time, Rachel, which sort of seems to have flown by in a very quick amount of time. I know you do a lot of reading, a lot of reading that Nippin passes on to us and he seems to be able to read a book in about five minutes flat and then says, yeah, this is a good one to read. And you look at it and you go, jeepers that's going to take me a week to read that, and that's just skimming it. But what from your learnings what would you say are two or three things that you can share with other health and safety professionals that can help them understand more about how to work with different cultures, how to work with people that are different from you, or even if they've just got a different opinion. A couple of good tips that you've got there.

Rachel: 20:47

I think listening is key, and like we said before that truly listening and so you're putting your own agendas to one side, I think is something I think Dr. Rob Long says, but you put your own agenda to the side and you just actually, truly listen to them. And I think, that reflective practice is a big thing as well, looking back at what, could I have done differently? What have I learned from this? I think that working with different people it goes with the duality of things, there isn't necessarily right or wrong, there just is. What I might consider to be right from my past, my upbringing, my cultural perspective or whatever might be entirely different from someone else with a different upbringing and different life experience.

Greg: 21:38

Actually, you talked about that point of confidence and engaging with other groups and it's a really important part of cultural intelligence Is having the confidence to engage with people that are different from you, and quite frankly, most people are going to be different from all of us, right? We're going to have different upbringings and experiences. And there may be the obvious and the visible, whether it's skin color age or gender. But there's a hell of a lot more invisible around diversity that you don't see and you don't know until you actually engage in a conversation and again, you mentioned Rob Long and, Nippin says something similar about just suspend your agenda and attend to the other person, I think is the phrase that he uses and just understand their perspective. They don't have to agree with it, but, just give others the opportunity to share their opinions and objectives around that.

Rachel: 22:39

Absolutely and I think, if there was another, say, two points from today, I think would be language matters, it's not just verbal. And that, our words shape our world, what we say and how we say it matters. And how we respond, and grow your people.

Greg: 23:00

It sounds like that was a good outcome from your time at the refinery. You tended to speak a lot about that and sounded like it was a really fascinating time to be in that environment.

Rachel: 23:13

It was, yeah, I was lucky, very lucky.

Greg: 23:15

Excellent. There's not too many people that say that about their employment, there's always something to complain about by the sounds of it out and about, so if you are happy and your work, then it must have been a good time. Hey, look. Rachel, thanks so much for your time. Really loved hearing some of those stories. Good to catch up again, although we do see each other quite regularly on, the old screen, but really nice to have have this chat and really appreciate you contributing to the podcast and yeah, look forward to talking to you again soon.

Rachel: 23:45

Awesome. Thank you, Greg.

Greg: 23:47

wow what a cool bunch of stories. It's not often you hear from people who have such joys when working in their job. Rachel talked about flow and connection during her time at the refinery, she also touched on how the business almost created its own language in how it talked to each other, the inference model, the left-hand and the right-hand. Rachel's been doing a lot of work around understanding culture and how she can apply those learnings to her own practice. And I know she is going to huge value from the opportunities to be mentored and challenged by Nippin The art of really listening was a key factor in Rachel's tips for health and safety people to be more inclusive in their work. If I was to define what that means, it's about listening for facts, listening for emotions and listening for meaning. Of course, Rachel expanded on this and bought in listening to body language, listening to the environment as other sources of information. I guess there is another factor as well and that's about listening for what is not said. Reflective practice is something Rachel also touched on, it's an important factor for health and safety professionals, but also for enhancing your CQ profile. Reflecting on how your own performance went during a multicultural engagement is really critical. How did it go? were there times where it felt weird, or was it fantastic? Did I disagree with the other person? How did it make me feel? Why. Did I adjust when I noticed the other person's body language. Reflection is when we learn., It's an important piece of the learning experience. So we've come to the end of this episode. Thanks again so much for listening. I hope you found something valuable that you can take away that might enhance aspects of your own cultural intelligence. I'll add the transcript from this episode to the show notes. If you'd like to talk about cultural intelligence get in touch with me via LinkedIn. I'm posting content regularly so keep an eye on your feed and comment if you see something that resonates. If we aren't connected, send me an invite. If you want to hear more about CQ you can follow and subscribe to this podcast, I'd really appreciate it if you did that. And keep an eye out for the next episode. Next week I'm joined by Dr. Marilyn Hubner, manager of the OHSBoK or the OSH body of knowledge, ex rugby player, canterbury rugby supporter and a true blue Aussie. This could be fun. Thanks again for tuning in to the Culturally Intelligent Safety Professional. Ka kitei.