The Culturally Intelligent Safety Professional Episode 6 Lifelong Learning

Today’s guest on the Culturally Intelligent Safety Professional is Dr. Marilyn Hubner. Dr. Hubner is a safety professional, academic and manager of the Australian Institute of Health and Safety’s OHS Body of Knowledge. https://www.ohsbok.org.au/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/marilyn-hubner-7146bb35/

Marilyn's career spans being a tradesperson, she spent time in the Australian Defence Force and has worked as an educator. Marilyn was elected as a Health and Safety Rep and her safety career grew from there resulting in a role with the National Safety Council as an instructor

We discuss whether cultural intelligence has a place in the safety curriculum, which Marilyn agrees it does however she highlights a slight roadblock in achieving this and that’s where does it fit? We heard a similar comment in episode 2 when we asked Chris Peace a similar question and got a similar answer. In Chris’s case the roadblock was having to comply with IOSH requirements around course design. Marilyn’s response was a little broader in that there doesn’t seem to be an accepted component part for what we might call Essential Skills or Power Skills, she suggested that its almost an expectation of educational institutions that people already have these Essential Skills like leadership, communication, influencing, and empathy all of which contribute to being more culturally intelligent.

Marilyn touched on one of the skills of those who are culturally intelligent and that was adaptability when she discussed arriving in Vietnam to teach a masters class to find no presentation technology available and had to resort to some maybe less traditional ways to get her message across.  She also reflects a story where technology was a significant part of a programme she was delivering and this was a roadblock for a student from an age perspective, someone who wasn’t computer literate and again other methods of communication had to be used. 

Marilyn encourages safety professionals to incorporate diversity in their presentations including pictures, videos etc, suggesting we represent the diversity that’s actually in our workplaces. She suggests that we include learning about cultural differences in our professional development plans.

Transcript

Greg: 0:01

Hi there everyone, welcome to another episode of the culturally intelligent safety professional, a podcast aimed at providing a platform whereby safety professionals can develop a pathway to enhance their cultural intelligence capability which will help them function more effectively when working in a multicultural situation. I'm Greg, Dearsly your host and I have a range of guests lined up to talk to this year. We have people with experiences across leadership psychology, health and safety, education and of course, cultural intelligence. All our guests come from a wide range of different backgrounds across the diversity spectrum including those from different organizational contexts. In this podcast you'll hear stories aimed at helping you the listener enhance your cultural intelligence. You'll gain an understanding of how you can create trust when working in a diverse environment, and quite frankly, thats all the time, no matter how homogenous the place you work at might be. It is still full of diversity. People with different backgrounds, experiences, and beliefs. All built on their figured world. Today, I'm talking with Dr. Marilyn Hubner, educational specialist, manager of the OSH body of knowledge and a massive rugby fan. And for those of you listening in New Zealand, actually a Canterbury crusaders supporter. Take from that, what you will. Hi, Marylin great to have you with me on the podcast today.

Marilyn: 1:37

Howdy Greg, it's fantastic to be here and really looking forward to see where our discussion can lead to.

Greg: 1:42

Yeah, absolutely. Obviously, we know each other but maybe for the audience, do you want to give us a bit of an introduction into Marylin and maybe how your career has developed and I know you've certainly done some specific education around indigenous cultures, so yeah, keen to hear a little bit about your story.

Marilyn: 1:59

All right. Yeah, my story is a bit eclectic, it's a bit, it's a bit like my music collection, it comes from all over the place. So I actually started off life as an apprentice painter and then I got injured pretty early in that apprenticeship and then after I got better I joined the defense force, which is pretty different to painting let me tell you. And then after my time in the defense force, which is probably really where I became an educator, or certainly learned about educating people in different ways. After that, I went off to university after bumming around Australia for a little bit, but I went off to university and did some work in applied science and then went off into the workforce after that and I, and one of my first jobs actually was teaching Indigenous youth up in North Queensland about looking after their land. Which is quite ironic, really, when you think about it. And then from that I had a wide variety of sort of adult education positions. So did lots of work with unemployed, long term unemployed people with a job agency in Australia, and that took me across, a wide variety of cultures and behaviours within classrooms. And but that's actually where I fell into safety so it was quite odd. A lot like many people in the safety profession in Australia I was initially elected as a health and safety representative which took me to an accredited training course with the regulator, which was five days of looking at the legislation, which most people would think is terrible, but I actually really enjoyed it. And from that, I just went on to vocational training in safety. So I did a certificate four, then a diploma, then an advanced diploma. And in that time I got, employed by the National Safety Council as an instructor, essentially, as a safety trainer. And yeah, and I've worked on through there, still working within safety and educating in my own business now, and then also educating safety professionals at university and lots of other, educational things.

Greg: 4:08

As you say, pretty eclectic career and correct me if I'm wrong, but your master's was in the area of indigenous culture.

Marilyn: 4:17

It was my honours actually, pretty naive when I think back to it because it is a long time ago and I'm such a different person now, but yeah, because I did applied science in natural area management, so protected, wildlife and lands. Yeah, I did my honours thinking that I would be able to go out to a national park and I would be able to speak to the traditional owners there about how they managed the land. And then I would look at how national parks and wildlife service managed the land and that I would be able to join those two knowledge bases together and we would have a perfect system for managing the land. But it didn't actually really turn out that way as you could imagine. One, the National Parks and Wildlife Service don't really manage the land quite well in some cases and the Indigenous people, whilst I did have a relationship with them, but I was not privy to the real information and whilst I did get some information and I did get quite a good score on my Honours thesis it wasn't the truth. It wasn't the whole truth and Yeah, and now when I look back, I just think how could a young white woman really expect real stories to be told when the relationship is just not there. Stories are a part of relationship and you have to have that first. And I yeah I actually have my honest thesis in my cupboard and I look at it and I cringe most of the time, but it gives me that reminder of the fact that gaining knowledge is not just about talking to people and reading things it's, it runs a lot deeper than that.

Greg: 5:56

Yeah, absolutely given your background with safety education and I know you've done a lot of work in that space in various I guess roles obviously this discussion is about cultural intelligence. And where it fits in the safety industry I'm guessing that a lot of your work has been about technical skills and capabilities of a safety professional, legislation, risk management, those types of things, a sort of double barreled question, where does cultural intelligence or anything to do with culture fit or does it fit into the wider safety curriculum, what's your thoughts, what are your experiences?

Marilyn: 6:39

That's a pretty big question. Does it fit? The simple answer is yes, as a culturally aware person, it absolutely, it fits not only in the curriculum, but in practice in general. It's such an essential I guess you could call it a skill, but I don't actually think cultural intelligence is a skill I think it's more of a mindset that you need to have, but I guess in order for a mindset to fit in it, it has to come from a skill or a capability but yeah, so definitely I think it is, but it's not as easy to just implement cultural intelligence awareness or even just cultural knowledge into the curriculum that we have, especially in areas like the western world, the way that Australia is the U S there's no real standard of bilingual language like there is in New Zealand or say in some areas of Canada and things like that. English is the only language and that's what we teach and that's. Our safety regulations whilst they do talk about appropriate languages, that's it. That's the only word in the entire piece of legislation that might be open to interpretation of where we can fit some cultural differences into our practice and into curriculum. But we definitely need to do it I think we need to have Professionals and practitioners more culturally aware because this is a global world that we live in. You and I are talking, we're in New Zealand, like you and I, we meet each other all over the world because of our work takes us all across the world. Global companies, you can get sent from America to Southeast Asia because that's where your company is opening a new manufacturing plant. But the other problem we have is not just people's behaviors or social behaviors and social thoughts that we have it really comes down to where would it fit within the curriculum? Many would talk about cultural intelligence as being like a soft skill, don't really like that word, let's call it a power skill for this. Where do we fit those types of skills into a curriculum? Because it doesn't really just fit in one area. It doesn't just fit, say, in risk management, it doesn't just fit in investigations, it fits across the entire board. And how could we do that? I think at the moment we just expect our students to have power skills, to have good communication skills, to have empathy, to have cultural intelligence and emotional intelligence. As educators, we just expect that because we don't teach it and we can't teach it, or we don't have the time within our curriculum to do that. I guess that expectation comes from that the good educators would be role modeling that, like in my classrooms I would be showing empathy and I would be showing awareness and understanding of different cultures. So in my mind, I don't think at this point in time, we have the capacity to put it into formal curriculum. But as educators, it should be in our personal practice curriculum, which is like how we deliver the content. We can't change the content, but how we deliver it is going to be where we're going to add diversity, or add awareness of any of these types of things, such as cultural intelligence or emotional intelligence.

Greg: 9:54

There's a few things to comment on in that firstly, just going right back to the beginning and, skill, capability the cultural intelligence concept is certainly a capability really, that can be measured, can be enhanced. And a lot of people we use the term cultural intelligence and people their mind automatically goes to knowledge, yes I know some stuff about different cultures or whatever it might be. That's just one small component of the whole sort of cultural intelligence framework. So yeah, certainly agree it's definitely a capability that can be developed. Your comments on the word power skills and that's a great use of the word or essential skills is one that I've heard quite a bit, yes, absolutely it is one of those and I think, where does it fit? We've got our safety technical skills, the risk management stuff, the investigations, whatever else might be in there. But then there's that other component of leadership which I think is where it fits, if you are a leader, you're culturally intelligent, you're emotionally intelligent, you've got the empathy, you've got the influence stuff going on. And so that would be my view of where that sits. And certainly we know that generally in the curriculum, a lot of those things aren't included. As you say, they're expected to just be part of a person's repertoire of capabilities when they come to do a health and safety course at whatever level. And I guess the last point that you mentioned about. The educator showing those skills and leading by example, and I guess I put, maybe I'll change that a little bit and say. In any situation in a workplace, a health and safety professional could be in an education space. They could be leading a toolbox meeting, or a committee meeting, or even if they're not leading it, they're participating in it and presenting at it, and I guess that would be the same in that environment. That they could be showing those cultural intelligence capabilities in the moment where they're faced with a diverse group of workers that they might be as I say, doing a toolbox talk with or a committee meeting, or even presenting at a management team meeting or any type of situation, it could even be a one on one session with an employee that you're talking to about whatever the issue might be. So yeah, that was some good feedback, some good commentary some good insights. I guess I wanted to go back to that. Classroom, you started to touch on the classroom scenario you are a safety educator you've done a lot of work in education yourself in adult education and just interested in hearing about some of your experiences in the classroom with health and safety professionals or aspiring health and safety professionals where culture might have been a factor, you come in there as a It's a Western lecture r but your students may well be from any and all other ethnicities or backgrounds, have you got any learnings, any stories, maybe any horrible stories where it's gone wrong for you, or?

Marilyn: 12:53

Yeah interestingly enough, just a couple of weeks ago, I was, it's not really the classroom, but it's my own professional development, I was at this conference here in Australia and the keynote speakers or the presenters Australian, US and New Zealand people, right? Mainly white I'll just say it outright like that. And all the keynotes, it wasn't really keynotes it was like facilitated discussions and things, but all these people at the front of the room, they there was a whole heap of this cultural joking around going on. I guess you could call it, joking around, the typical how can you eat Vegemite type of stuff? It's disgusting. There was some talk about sheep and lots of things about candy, like candy and sweets and, teasing like general teasing that. And at the time I didn't really think too much of it and probably even chuckled at some of the things that were going on but then I was thinking about it and reflecting on what else I was learning at that conference for a report I'm writing and also, thinking about what we're going to talk about. And I just thought to myself. Why does that even need to happen? Everybody in the room was a health and safety professional in some way, shape or form. And I don't think this is just a health and safety profession issue. It's everybody's, profession, but I just thought to myself, what, why do we need to make jokes about the differences like of the social differences between people? Like why did everybody in that room, like 500 people, why did we all think that was okay? And nobody certainly nobody stood up at the time and said is this inappropriate? Because I guess that is the question. Is it inappropriate? It okay to be teasing someone about their culture, about where they come from or how the language works in their country and things like that. And I guess this is you teaching me, even just that we're having this conversation makes me think about my behaviors. And I did actually feel a little bit guilty about laughing at those jokes. So everyone has space to learn and it can be just the simplest of things there. But that's really not about me educating it and you're right I do a lot of different educating. Most of my work now is with managers and supervisors, but I also think back to teaching vocational training here in Australia and my current work as a faculty member of a Canadian university. I don't actually, I don't have any bad stories to tell really, not of where something went completely wrong. Not in the health and safety sphere, I will put myself out there and say many years ago, I was teaching them a master's of education class in Vietnam with my university here that I did my PhD with. And so we would go over to Vietnam, a whole bunch of teachers, mainly from Australia, but we would pull international ones as well. So Canadians and English people, and we would all turn up in Vietnam three times a year. And for 10 days we would teach Vietnamese teachers, right? My, class was innovation, so I was very excited the first time, teaching innovation in education is great. There's so many things you can do like technology and games and, things like that, and I had all this PowerPoint presentations and videos and media stuff. And I was like getting so excited and I went over there and they showed me to my classroom on the first day and the classroom had a blackboard and chalk I was like, there was no projector or no nothing, not even an OHT machine, an overhead projector with the plastic sleeves, not even that, it was just a blackboard and I was like, Oh my goodness, how am I going to do this? And so obviously I flipped it, the more practiced you are at things like that, you flip it and I taught innovation in a different way. And it was more like engaging with the students in a different way. And I remember actually the next time I went back, I was fully prepared for a blackboard, but they actually gave me a projector the second year or the second time around, but which was better. But I still did something that was a little bit unexpected. And I guess when I look at it, maybe culturally inappropriate is I jumped up on the desk, on the teacher's desk, and I started teaching from a standing position on the desk and the students were horrified that they were absolutely horrified but because they think that the profession is as a teacher, your way up here in prestige, they said nothing, they sat there and they even videoed me every word that I said. And then it was actually up to the Dean of the university to come and tell me that's probably not the most appropriate thing to do because it scared some of the students. I guess that's that. Yeah. Like coming back to the health and safety profession and I've only really had great experiences in my classrooms with people and I think that's because I have been lucky to teach In really safe spaces where people are quite open to talk. And in the Australian classrooms, like face to face classrooms that I deliver there, they're quite safe spaces and the people are very confident in that and they will talk up. But actually just recently in the Canadian class that I teach, a couple of them. I had an an older worker and he was always behind in the class, like really behind the rest of them. And it's an online course and it's asynchronous, so they move along at their own pace, but there's still interaction discussion boards and things like that. Anyway he sent me an email that was very odd and just said I can't do it. This is, I'm too old for this, so I had a conversation with him and what dawned on me is that this guy was old school paper based, had never really touched a computer in his life. His digital literacy was in fact zilch, really, but he really wanted to do this safety course but he didn't know how he would be able to do it because it's all online and he can't work the technology and he submits the wrong things and he tries to type and it takes too long, all, all of those things that a limited digital literacy would give someone. I thought how can we do this? Like he's different, his abilities are different, how can we do this in an online environment? So a really quick way of fixing it was that we got all of the content delivered to him in a hard format. So we sent him the notes and the books and all of the discussion questions and the assignments. And he hand writes things. And takes a photo of it and texts me the photo and then I submit it for him. So hopefully my faculty is not listening cause we're probably not supposed to do that. But that's, like he's different, he has different abilities, a different language, in a way, and yeah, and then we had to overcome that problem so that he could continue in the classroom and whilst digital literacy might not fit into cultural intelligence it's a difference.

Greg: 20:01

I'd be to differ, actually, I would say that it absolutely, culture is part of that. And if you think about all of those aspects of diversity that we always talk about, we talk about age and gender and sexual orientation and religion and political views, it's all the things that make up an individual's culture. Yeah. And, yeah, absolutely. And what that story does is a similar example might be if you've got let's say a dyslexic person in your class who is going to be different in the way that they read and are able to write content and so what are universities and educational facilities doing to enable dyslexic people feel like they belong in that environment. And yes, there's a lot of technology out there nowadays, which is pretty phenomenal. I don't know if you've ever seen some of it, but the digital technology available to help particularly dyslexic people is outstanding. And you, I think you've used the right words there in saying it's different. And therefore it's not, we're trying to get out of the habit of using words like disability and those sorts of things, because it's just a different way of approaching work and life, and particularly in that neurodiverse space. People that fit into that space have just got so many skills in areas that a neurotypical person doesn't have, very creative and good at relationships and details and all of those sorts of things. So it's just difference, and it's not bad it's just different.

Marilyn: 21:39

Yeah, just on that just last night, my mum and my little brother were over for dinner and my little brother has a learning disability. I think you've met him, and I'd given my mum a piece of paper and it was a pretty important piece of paper and she goes, Oh, Marilyn, I just don't know where it is. And Christopher, my little brother says it's on the kitchen bench on the third shelf underneath the piece of blue paper. And I'm just like, whoa, really? He might not be able to learn the way that other people learn, but geez, his memory is on, just on par. And when they got home, mum texted me and she said, yep, it was exactly where he said it was.

Greg: 22:14

Wow. I just want to go back to your story about conference. And I don't know if it was the same conference, but we were at a conference together last year and there was a session where there was a chap speaking who was from Japan and he was up there presenting and trying to present his best in English. And what it made me think of was how culturally aware the conference organisers were, or in this case may not have been, because his presentation was, he struggled to speak in English. It's, we see it all the time now, don't we? We see TV shots of the World Health Organization, or the ILO, and they've all got the translator headsets on. And it just made me think about this chap, and why couldn't translator headsets being provided to the audience in that particular conference, so that he could have spoken in his own language. And the presentation probably would have come off a lot better because, as I say he really struggled in that situation and I'm sure it's not the only case of that happening around the world and a pretty easy resolution.

Marilyn: 23:25

That's exactly right. It is a really simple technology to use translators. It's perhaps costly at a large scale but it's something that if we were, continually thinking about differences and language differences or cultural differences we would not even think about that. That would just be the cost within the conference that translation is required. The conference is doing I think I was even on the panel of that particular situation and I remember even in the meetings, comments were made that we need to be inclusive and this is a technology that people need to know about. And we're all, we're completely happy with that. All the other panel members completely happy with that. But it does make you think that if you are going to include people from areas where English is a second language at an English conference and you're giving them a stage light yeah, perhaps we just need to go translation is part of this and we just do it for everybody.

Greg: 24:23

Certainly in that conference setting it was a big event. I can't say that money shouldn't have been an issue but that would be, I think, something that that conference organisers should have on their to do list and, use the word inclusion, belonging is really important I think because maybe his message was really good and he might not come back again.

Marilyn: 24:39

Definitely his message was good that and how they put the technology together at Toyota is, the gentleman was from Toyota. It's fascinating, like completely fascinating. This is one of the problems with the safety profession is that the language of safety is English. Even at ILO headquarters, you go to training at ILO headquarters in, Turin in Italy, the classes are presented in English. It just, it doesn't make sense. Yes, people translate into different languages in their books and their materials and guidance materials, things like that. Even our regulators in Australia, they translate the codes of practice into different languages. But we still have everything written in English.

Greg: 25:27

Hey, it's been a fantastic discussion. I just want to end or would ask you to end with maybe two or three tips. On how somebody in the safety profession who is, as part of their job is presenting information to, workers who I think we've agreed is always going to be diverse regardless of how homogenous the group might look. It's always going to have aspects of diversity and I love your story about the older gentleman and his digital literacy and those sorts of issues, the neurodiversity issue that you have to get around with communication. So yeah, a couple of tips maybe on how safety professionals who are in that environment, what can they think about and do to be a little bit more culturally intelligent?

Marilyn: 26:21

Yeah, there's so many things that you could do, like just improving your own communication skills or fostering global collaboration. But no, I'll focus on the safety side and maybe even the education side of it on this sense. So if you're out there and you're the safety professional and you've got to present information in some way, shape or form, so toolbox or formal training, whatever, I think you need to incorporate difference and diversity into your photos, your case studies, your scenarios, your things like that. You go and do a Google search on pictures of say construction workplaces and the first 50 of them will be white men. And then there'll be the engineer females. But there's not really a lot of cultural diversity in the pictures that are available. So I think that it's Your job as the professional, as the safety profession to, represent the diversity that's in your own workplace. If it's internal in your own workplace, look at the diversity in your workplace and then put that into your training or your communication. Like that's the first thing. The second tip that I will give you is probably it's really about lifelong learning. I think that as a safety professional, you need to engage in continuous learning about cultural differences at a barest minimum about the diversity that's in your own workplace and understanding that, and that's, from language or culture or social norms or gender differences, whatever. Formal education on those types of aspects workshops, courses on cultural intelligence, courses on improving yourself because the more that you learn and the more aware you are, the more that you can. Show other people as safety people. We influence behavior, we influence decisions. So that's what in order to influence, we need information. We need to give information to other people in the way that they'll accept it. So if we are constantly showing difference and diversity in the way that we talk and speak and produce materials, then that should influence our workplace. It's not just the spoken things. It's not just written language. My experience has shown me around the world that it's more the non verbal things that get people into trouble or that get people thinking weirdly, like why are they treating me differently, from things about shaking hands to looking in people's eyes or not looking at people's eyes and, bowing lower and, all of those different types of things that are out there. And if you don't know them, then you're going to be put in a situation where you might be putting the wrong impact into people. So continuous learning, even like this informal podcast, keep listening to Greg's podcast to, get more insights about how other people are doing and then you can change your own behavior.

Greg: 29:20

Yeah, absolutely. And thanks for the plug. It was just I think there was actually some official research out there that tells you that nonverbal behavior is the thing that influences communication the most, more than the spoken word and more than the way that we speak. So yes, there's the words that we speak, but it's also the tone and the speed and the accent and all of those different ways that we speak. But it's the non verbal cues that influence how the message is received more than anything else. And I'll just pick lastly up on, you talked about shaking hands, and I've been reading some stuff recently around autism. And a bloke by the name of Pete Warmby has written a book called Untypical, where he talks about how He, as a autistic person, and this might not apply to all autistic people, doesn't like shaking hands and but it's a, it's, let's say it's a western norm for that to happen and but dyslexic people, generally and it's not trying to create a stereotype there, you've got to start somewhere that, the advice from an author who is autistic has said that shaking hands is just not something that they enjoy.

Marilyn: 30:37

Yeah, absolutely. And I've met one, Christopher, my brother's friends who's on the autism spectrum that's very touchy feely though. And in fact, once he likes the clothing that you're wearing, the feel of your clothing, he will not let go. So on the complete other side, but yeah, it is, it's those nonverbal cues that are super important when you are communicating. And if you don't know about it as a safety professional or as a person, then you're not going to give the right impression and you're not going to have that same influence that we really are looking for as safety professions.

Greg: 31:16

Hey, been absolutely fantastic to talk to you again, really enjoyed your experiences and insights into some of this stuff. I look forward to catching up again soon and who are you picking, the Crusaders are playing again soon are they?

Marilyn: 31:30

Yeah, they've, they had a loss by one point to the Chiefs last week. I'm not sure who they're playing this week but I'm sure they'll come back. They'll come back strong. Looking for another championship this year. Thanks very much.

Greg: 31:40

There you go. An Australian banging the drum for a New Zealand rugby side. Love it. Hey, thanks a lot Marilyn. Talk to you again soon.

Marilyn: 31:49

All right, cheers. Thanks Greg. Bye everyone. Bye.

Greg: 31:54

What an insightful chat, Marylin agreed that cultural intelligence does have a place in the safety curriculum, however she highlights a slight roadblock in achieving this and that's where does it fit? We heard a similar comment in episode two, when we asked Chris Peace a similar question and got a similar answer. In Chris's case the roadblock was having to comply with IOSH requirements around course design. Marylins response was a little broader. in that it doesn't seem to be an accepted component part of what we might call essential skills or power skills. She suggested that it's almost an expectation of educational institutions that people already have these essential skills like leadership communication, influencing, empathy. All of which contribute to being more culturally intelligent. Marilyn touched on one of the skills of those who are culturally intelligent and that was adaptability. She discussed this when she was talking about arriving in Vietnam to teach a master's class to find no presentation technology available. And had to resort to some maybe less traditional ways to get a message across. She also reflects a story where technology was a significant part of a program that she was delivering and this was a roadblock for a student from an age perspective. Someone who wasn't computer literate, and again other methods of communication had to be used. Marilyn encourages safety professionals to incorporate diversity into the presentations, including pictures and videos suggesting that we"represent the diversity that's actually in our workplaces". She suggests that we include learning about cultural differences in our professional development plan. So we've come to the end of this episode thanks so much for listening. I hope you found something valuable that you can take away that might enhance aspects of your own cultural intelligence. I'll add the transcript from this episode to the show notes and there'll be some other resources available as well. If you'd like to talk about cultural intelligence get in touch with me via LinkedIn. I'm posting content regularly so keep an eye on your feed and comment if you see something that resonates. If we aren't connected send me an invite. If you want to hear more about CQ, you can follow and subscribe to this podcast I'd really appreciate it if you did that. And keep an eye out for the next episode. Next week. I'm joined by Tom Jones, health and safety advisor in the construction industry and an avid hunter. Tom and I are going to be discussing communication and neurodiversity. Thanks again for tuning into the culturally intelligent safety professional. ka kitei.