The Culturally Intelligent Safety Professional Episode 9 A life turning point

In this episode we head East and explore Asian Cultural Values and how they might impact on migrant workforce health and safety experiences, knowledge and outcomes. 

Our guest is Michelle Wu who is a Health and Safety Professional with Advanced Safety and founder of the Asian Business Health, Safety and Environmental Network which is a not for profit organisation which aims to break down cultural barriers to promote a strong health and safety culture among Asian businesses.  

Join us as Michelle explores some Asian cultural values like Power Distance and the deference to hierarchy, Direct and Indirect Context and Collectivism. 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelle-w-a1813995/
https://abhsen.co.nz/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/asian-business-health-safety-and-environment-network-incorporated-590ab7278/

Transcript

Greg: 0:00

Welcome to another episode of the Culturally Intelligent Safety Professional, a podcast aimed it providing a platform, whereby safety professionals can develop a pathway to enhance their cultural intelligence capability, which will in turn, help them function more effectively when working in a multicultural situation. I'm Greg Dearsly your host and I have a range of guests lined up to talk to this year. We have people with experiences across leadership, psychology, health and safety, education, and of course cultural intelligence. All of our guests come from a wide range of different backgrounds across the diversity spectrum including from different organizational context. In this podcast you'll hear stories aimed at helping you, the listener enhance your cultural intelligence. You'll gain an understanding of how you can create trust when working in a diverse environment and quite frankly, that's all the time, no matter how homogenous the place you work at might be it's still full of diversity, people with different backgrounds, experiences, and beliefs all built on their figured world. So today I'm talking to Michelle Wu from Advanced Safety. Michelle is a chartered member of IOSH, a certified professional with NZISM and the founder of the Asian Business Health, Safety and Environmental Network, which is a non profit organisation that aims to break down cultural barriers to promote strong health and safety culture among Asian businesses, Ni Hao Ma, Michelle great to have you on the show today.

Michelle: 1:47

Thank you so much for the warm introduction Greg it's such a pleasure to be here I'm truly excited to have the opportunity to join you on this podcast and also to discuss safety culture with you.

Greg: 2:00

I think just before we do start with our conversation it's timely given the events of the last week or so that I would like to just acknowledge the events that happened in Taiwan with the earthquake given that we're going to be talking about Asian culture and health and safety in our chat, so hope that that is resolved as best as it can be over the next few weeks. Michelle, I'm really keen to hear more about your Asian Business Health and Safety Network, but maybe first, if you can give the audience a bit of an introduction to yourself and how you ended up in health and safety doing the work that you do.

Michelle: 2:38

Yeah, sure. So actually like the transition into the health and safety fields was like a life turning point for me and originally I was worked as an accountant, but once switched my job to join the Scaffolding company. So the new job required me to assist the health and safety manager with some health and safety paperwork. And then my boss enrolled me into a level three workplace health and safety management course. And the more I dived into health and safety and the more I think it's resonated with me. And I came to New Zealand in 2011. And since then, I've heard quite a lot of stories about migrants suffering from workplace injuries and also the challenge they are facing in asserting their rights. And to see their struggling, it's really ignited my desire to support their safety and well being. And I think this is driving force behind my commitment to this field and also my dedication to supporting the migrants. And to enhance my knowledge and also the proficiencies in the health and safety management, I pursued some further qualifications. So I completed the NEBOSH International Diploma and also gain some valuable experience over time, which has led me to become a Chartered Practitioner.

Greg: 4:03

That's really cool and good to hear your commitment and I was going to ask you about your why, why do you do this? And so you've delved into that a little bit about the impact of health and safety or poor health and safety outcomes on migrant workforces. In fact, I was having a conversation loosely around that subject with somebody else this week. And so is the, migrant health and safety performance quite significant here in New Zealand from what you've learned?

Michelle: 4:33

Yes, and I don't think it's not only like the migrants and also for example those migrants who have started their construction business. And as a business owners they are'nt very aware how to manage health and safety at workplace to protect their workers safety. And that's another concern for me as well. And most of the time when our inspectors go on site, so you will find like probably 80 percent of the time if you go to a Asian construction site, the health and safety measures are not really adequately managed, which is, it also shows the safety culture among the Asian business is often poor compared to our local business. And there comes to my another reason, which is to improve the safety culture and then to change the reputation of the Asian business around the safety culture is another significant motivation for the work I do.

Greg: 5:29

I was reading something recently and it was it was a quote from a chap that was heading the investigation into the Fukushima nuclear power plant disaster in Japan more than 10 years ago now. And we know that this incident was largely caused. By an earthquake and a subsequent tsunami, but that's not what the investigation pinned the root cause on, and I want to read you the passage or the quote from this person who was who headed up the investigation. He said."What must be admitted, very painfully, is that this was a disaster made in Japan. Its fundamental causes are to be found in the ingrained conventions of Japanese culture, our reflexive obedience, our reluctance to question authority, our devotion to sticking with the program, our groupism, and our insularity. Had other Japanese been in the shoes of those who bear the responsibility for this accident, the result may well have been the same." Now we'll take that quote for what it is and put it aside because I want to talk to you now about Your network group and that the Asian Business Health and Safety Network and I know you've got a page on LinkedIn and you talk there about maybe some of the stuff you've already mentioned the high risks and the lack of health and safety culture among Asian businesses in New Zealand and you talk about vulnerable communities such as Asian workers. And you mentioned them being unaware of their health and safety rights and liabilities. Probably not a lot there that we didn't really already know. But then you say that your organization recognizes that safety concerns are overlooked, or are often overlooked in Asian work cultures due to the strong internal hierarchies that discourage workers from speaking up. And when you read that comment from your LinkedIn page and put it next to the quote from the Fukushima investigation, it starts to tell a little bit of a story. And I guess I'm keen to get your take on that, and do we have an understanding in New Zealand about the real impact Asian culture might have on their health and safety and the health and safety of their workers here in New Zealand.

Michelle: 7:49

Definitely. I think there will be links. So let's say like for the Asian mind side is like very hierarchy. So in the company if I was as a worker, I have to listen to what my boss told me. So whatever the task my boss lets me to do, and then give me the dead line, I have to finish before that, and I can't say no. And then you will find a bit like a funnest like if something wrong when the boss told you like give the wrong instructions and then turns out, okay, so the event has been turned really bad. But at the end, You were the one said, okay, it's my fault. It's not my boss fault. So you are the one who have to like, take all and then to said, okay, this is my fault, which is it's something like, it's not like our local business to and another thing is like most the migrants here, like they have the work visa, which is purely depends on the employer, which is the accredited employer work visa. Another concern is when the workers appeared really depends on the employer to provide the work visa, it's really strict the workers to actually speak the truth and the fact about how they think about the workplace. And if they do, then the employer probably going to fire them. And because the workers doesn't know what's the rights. for them. So they rather okay, so I don't want to bring any troubles to myself. I just want to like work as what I have told. And that's all. And this is like how you become like the culture is like they bring their own culture to New Zealand, but not really adapt to our New Zealand employment law.

Greg: 9:33

So you talked about a couple of things there the can't say no thing, so that's, it's a hierarchical, cultural thing. The boss has asked me to do something I can't say no. And does that also apply to even questioning the boss to clarify? If I haven't understood the full instruction, would I be prepared to ask for clarification, or would I just go and do what I thought the boss had said?.

Michelle: 10:01

You will go for what you thought the boss said, because they are too afraid to ask again. And then the boss could be like there's a bad attitude, say that I already told you why you have to ask me again. And then the second would be like the boss was saying, okay, so I hire you because like you are competent to do the job. You don't need to ask me what to do. You should already know how to do the job.

Greg: 10:23

And then you talked about. I think what you didn't use the words but there's a concept, I think of saving face and I think what you're suggesting is that I, as the migrant worker if there's an incident, I will take the blame because I need to save the face of the manager and not put the blame on the manager. Is that right?

Michelle: 10:44

Yes. Yeah, correct.

Greg: 10:47

And the work visa thing, of course, we hear that quite a bit, don't we? We hear the whole things won't get reported because I'm concerned I'll get in trouble, I might lose my job, and therefore if I lose my job, I lose my visa. And then I get sent home. And is that a real are you aware, I know we hear about that a little bit maybe not from a health and safety perspective, although. It's from a working conditions perspective. Does that happen a lot? Have you come across that a lot in New Zealand?

Michelle: 11:14

It does. And I wouldn't say like a lot, but like it's often like happening. So what has happened is especially like actually there are quite a lot Notifiable events happened, which haven't notified WorkSafe. And the reason is first is the business owner probably doesn't know the requirement. They have to notify WorkSafe as for the Notifiable events and second, like they probably know that they want to keep quiet, so they don't want to get into an investigation or get into trouble or damage their reputation for the company. So they chose to stay quiet and then they tell the workers. Says, okay, so I'm going to pay you like all the conversations or like a hospital fees and then to make sure like you recovered and stuff. But however there are also some employers which is they don't pay it at all. And that's why there are some news saying about like migrants workers who got really injured and some even like disabled and they won't be able to get any compensation from the employer because the employer has been threatened. Okay, so if you're going to tell anyone that I'm not going to support your visa anymore. So that's why I like some of the workers. They suffered enough and they chose. Okay, I'm going to report to media because I am disabled I can't do any work to support my family. So I have to have some conversation and this is how the media come in and then they report this whole event. But it seems like you can tell from the story that the migrants workers, they don't know their rights and they don't know where to seeking help. And if they do know that, and then they won't be end up into this situation.

Greg: 12:57

So that's interesting. And you've mentioned that a few times about not knowing their rights. And I certainly haven't done any research into this, but if I'm a migrant coming into New Zealand, do I get told anything about my rights from a health and safety perspective? The fact that I can say no, I know that's a challenge because it goes against my cultural value, that I'm not going to go against the boss, there is that legal right that we can say no to dangerous work. Is there anywhere as a migrant that I get told that?

Michelle: 13:31

I believe when the company register as a credit employer. So when they hire a migrants workers, I think there's a requirement from the immigration, which is they have to provide the introduction to the employees, which is I think it's like an online training sessions. I'm not exactly sure the details.

Greg: 13:50

We were speaking a little while ago in, in preparing for this discussion and there was probably three things that we talked about in terms of what WorkSafe or the government or decision makers could do to enhance this asian migrants understanding of health and safety. Some of it was around legislation, some of it was around education and some of it was around language. I think those were probably three of the things that you talked about that are challenging, for migrants. Do you want to go back over those and just talk to me about, interpretation or understanding of legislation, attitudes towards Independent consultants coming in and training versus Information from the regulator and anything around English language translation, those sorts of things.

Michelle: 14:42

Yeah, sure. I think one of the suggestions that we will discuss was about the WorkSafe need to create more communication channels. Because we have to understand lots of the Asian business owners and even the Asian workers, they don't really speak English well. And then if you expect them to type English in the website and to search WorkSafe website, and then once you get into the website, you have to search in English what the information you're looking for in that website. It's pretty much, No one's going to do that. And then that's why it's like, if the work safe can work with for example Chinese social media in New Zealand, and then like Filipino group. So we got different channels, which is the Migrants here, they communicate the information with their community group using that social media. So if the WorkSafe can create those communication channels with those social medias to different ethnic groups, that would be really effective for them to understand what the news comes out, what are the updates related to the legislation. I think that's really helpful. And in terms of the materials, it definitely would be useful if WorkSafe have training materials, which is provided in different languages. It helps the community to actually spread the news to the members. Okay, so this is the flyers from the WorkSafe and this is the main information that we need to notice in terms of health and safety. And trainings wide as well. I know there are some trainings provided like in some like a main language with Chinese or Filipino different language, but still it's only like a basic one, but for example, like a confined space or working at height, they are still like provided in English. And for that we have encountered some situation, which is the business has been, a few migrants workers to come to work in New Zealand for short projects, which involves working at heights. And then they have to enroll their workers to that course to make sure they understand how we do the work in New Zealand. But the course was provided in English and they ask the training association say if you can have a translator just translates the content into that into Chinese and then provides to our workers. And they say, yes, we do. But however we can't really qualify you with the certification after you accomplish the course because it's translated in Chinese so we can't guarantee like they truly understand it and this is like a problem. There are quite some like company doing some tricky ways and I know there's like a roof company and what they did is like they have four or five workers which is they have only one worker who actually speak fluent English so they send that worker and then to do the course first and once he got that qualifications And he totally understand what had been told in the class and then the next time the boss booked the same person with another two staff together to the same course, which is another two people copy the work with that person, which has got the same qualification, but they don't really understand what they being taught in the class. I think there's a definite, there's necessarily like to provide the training to different language.

Greg: 18:14

That's interesting because then if some of those workers maybe go and work for a more English based, English speaking based organization, no doubt they'll get a bit of paper along the way somewhere that says, please sign that you have read and understood. This policy, or this training, or this instruction, and if you then come back to the whole cultural norm of bowing down to the boss, accepting what the boss has said, is it likely that they'll just sign it, regardless of understanding? I'll sign the bit of paper. Yeah, all good. Yeah. One of the things that we talked about and correct me if I'm wrong, but you indicated when we spoke that. People of Asian descent would from a understanding of legislation perspective would prefer to be told exactly what they're supposed to do to comply with the law whereas we know in New Zealand, our law is largely non prescriptive, it doesn't really tell you what to do, it just says don't hurt anybody and doesn't give you a lot of guidance about what that specifically means so Asian cultures would prefer to be I guess having that real clarity of expectations in the legislation.

Michelle: 19:27

Yes, totally. I have been talking with quite a lot of Chinese owners and one of the concerns they came up is they said they don't know exactly the requirements, for example, if they are working at height or if they're working in the construction field, what's exactly the requirement the government require us to do. They don't know exactly, because in the health and safety legislation, we said, okay, so the, as a PCBU, you need to manage the risk and then to be reasonable practical. But for them, it doesn't mean anything to them. They want to be like a really in detail. Okay. So in terms of the site what do I need to do to reach to which point and then like different elements and to what are the requirements for them? It's easier to understand because it's still as the culture difference, like in Asia, when we told the kids in school, so we gave them the book and then tell them what to do. It's not like here in school. Okay, so here's the questions and let the children to come up with answers. But in, in China and in all the Asian countries is different, so the teacher will give you the answers, and then you just need to think up, you just need to follow the step by step, and then get to there. So it's like copy paste. So that's why I like if they come here and they say okay so you need to manage your risk. But they need to be told how to do it, and then by steps, what are the requirements. Yeah,

Greg: 20:54

Interesting so the other point that we talked about was you indicated to me that Asian business owners, if there was a regime of The regulator providing education, training courses or workshops or whatever it might be, that Asian business owners would more likely go to a government sponsored event than hiring a consultant who they probably don't know. They've probably got little trust in that consultant because they don't know them. And so that's the case is that if there was lots of government provided education that more Asian businesses would seek out that, that education.

Michelle: 21:37

Yes, definitely. So there's two points. One is when the government come out with the course and it's like to tell the Asian business owners, okay, so this is a compulsory things I need to do. And this is important. But however, if it's come out from an external consultant, the immediate thoughts they will have, okay, so is this person trying to earn more money from my business? This is their honest thought about that. But however, if it comes out from the government, they will definitely, okay, so this is important, and I need to attend to that.

Greg: 22:10

So where does your organization fit into all of this? What sort of services do you provide to the Asian business community?

Michelle: 22:17

So for our organization, it's more to provide support to the Asian business. And because the safety culture is really low so we start with to educate them, what are the health and safety rights and liabilities? It doesn't matter if it's like BCPU or workers or officers and we provide those legislation training sessions to them. And then once they understand what they need to do in terms of the health and safety from legislation point of view, and we will teach them like how to manage the health and safety from the operation point of view. Because you can't expect everyone going to be like a health and safety practitioner and really professional in the health and safety. And lots of the Asian business, they are really like small to medium business, so limited to the budget. And they can't really afford to hire a full time health and safety practitioner or have an external consultant to help them all the time. So what we said, what we come out is we're going to teach them the health and safety system and then tell them what are the system are and what are the elements. Like for example within the system we got like a risk management incident investigation and different subtle elements. But for each element, we're going to actually give the trainings to them on how you identify risk and then how you how do you control risk and how you're going to carry out the investigation. It's like really detailed, but practical for each company to actually manage their health and safety from data point of view. Yeah.

Greg: 23:48

Nice. So we're just about at time. What I would love to get some feedback from you on, is if I'm a health and safety person and maybe I have the opportunity to provide some guidance to an Asian based business. What are some things that I should go into that job pre prepared with to be able to better assist that organization with their health and safety? And How should I behave? Are there any cultural things that I should do to create more trust or connection on my first meeting with them? Just maybe two or three things that, that maybe the listeners might be interested in hearing about.

Michelle: 24:32

Yes I think first is before going to any I say group workers. First, understand their culture. And then if you do understand their culture and where they come from, and then you will think using their way. Because you have to act as a friend. And then most times, like, when the health and safety people showing on our site, and immediately the Asian migrants workers will feel like, oh my god, this is like a boss. This is going to be doing something on my work. I have to behave really well and then, so like first understand like where they come out from that self and then second is like act as their friends and then just say okay so I'm here to learn the things from you guys so you know like we learn from the both ways it's not like I'm here to actually monitoring and then to evaluate how you're doing the work and then second if it's going to be like a long term Working with the migrant workers. I think it's better to have culture representative. You will find out, like, when even migrants workers working for our local business, for example Chinese group, or Filipino group, when they're working for the local business, you will find out during the breaks, they always hang out together, but not hang out with our team and stuff. And the reason is like they feeling like more trust to be with the people with the same group and also they have like more trust to actually share some, like a personal stuff with the people from the same country. So have a culture advisor or culture representative for that group would be really beneficial. If the company wants to get any information from that asset group or communicate that information, then they can just like talk to the reps and the reps can communicate the information with them really well in their own language. And also in terms like how we can support them like Let's say if they have some family issues and it could be affect to their work, and then they can talk that to the reps and the reps can give that information to the company so the company know how to support them. But however, if you expect that staff going to talk the personal stuff to the boss directly is very hard to occur. Yeah.

Greg: 26:51

That's really useful. It is been a really interesting conversation. And I guess one of the things that we'll do I know last year you wrote an article for Safeguard so we can put a link up to that article. And it was about many of the things that you've talked about today. You've talked about a lot of data in your article about the percentage of Asian businesses that don't really understand about health and safety, and the number of people that don't understand their rights and responsibilities and liabilities and those sorts of things. You've talked a little bit about Asian culture and the impact of those relationships between the and their boss. There's a really good article in the January February Safeguard from 2023, so we'll put a link up about that, and of course there is your Asian Business Health, Safety and Environmental Network LinkedIn page. Is that the best place that people can find you on that LinkedIn page? If they are an Asian business or are helping an Asian business, is that the best location to find you?

Michelle: 27:52

They can either find us on the LinkedIn page or go to our website. We have a contact form, which is they can fill it in.

Greg: 27:58

Excellent okay we can put a link to the website, the LinkedIn page, your article and safeguard Loved talking to you today, Michelle and what a great journey to, come to a new country and create that pathway, that passion for yourself, coming from an accounting background and all of a sudden you're a health and safety professional both with IOSH and NZ ISM and well done on all of that and yeah, look forward to talking to you again soon.

Michelle: 28:26

Thank you, Greg see you later.

Greg: 28:30

Some really interesting insights into Asian culture and that discussion. I think we heard a true reflection of how culture impacts on individuals and how that shows up in a workplace, and in terms of this podcast, how culture has reflected on how organizations and individuals understand health and safety. Michelle really explored for us some of those Asian cultural values, like power distance and the defference to hierarchy. She described a bit of a mixed approach when it came to context. On one hand business owners preferring a low context, direct approach, needing explicit guidance from a legislative perspective. And on the other hand, individuals preferences for high context indirect communication and saving face. Of course she discussed scenarios where collectivism came to the fore as a value with workers preferring to take the breaks together as a group. I'd like to reiterate that for any practitioner who might be working with Asian workers or Asian owned businesses. To connect with Michelle and her Asian business, health, safety, and environmental network. I'm sure she can share plenty more insights into how you might better engage with this culture. Which will in turn enhance your own cultural intelligence. We've come to the end of this episode. Thanks so much for listening. I hope you found something valuable that you can take away that might enhance aspects of your own cultural intelligence. I'll add the transcript from this episode to the show notes and there'll be some other resources available as well. If you'd like to talk about cultural intelligence get in touch with me via LinkedIn. I'm posting content regularly so keep an eye on your feed and comment if you see something that resonates, if we aren't connected send me an invite. If you want to hear more about CQ you can follow and subscribe to this podcast I'd really appreciate it if you did that. And keep an eye out for the next episode. Next week's guest is Jane Fowles, she's a health and safety professional in the dairy industry. Our Asian theme continues a little in this episode as Jane talks about her studies into worker engagement and the Filipino workforce in the mid Canterbury dairy sector. Thanks again for tuning into The Culturally Intelligent Safety Professional. Ka kitei.