The Culturally Intelligent Safety Professional S2E6 The Space to Speak Freely

What a conversation, huge thanks again to Jodhi Warwick-Ponga for joining us, and for bringing such grounded, powerful insights into the space.

There are a few key takeaways I want to highlight. 

First — that idea of diversity as a dynamic resource. Jodhi reminded us that every person brings something unique to the table, and when we embrace that, we open the door to creativity, innovation, and more effective decision-making.

Second — we talked a lot about intellectual honesty. It’s not just about making space for people to feel safe speaking up, but also creating the expectation that it’s okay to disagree and challenge ideas constructively. That’s where real growth happens.

Third — reflection. And not just ticking the CPD box, but truly reflecting on our own beliefs, biases, and blind spots. If we want to develop cultural intelligence, we have to start with understanding ourselves.

And finally — time. Jodhi raised an important point that being culturally intelligent takes time. Time to build trust. Time to connect. Time to be present. And sometimes that’s the biggest challenge of all in leadership.

So wherever you’re at in your journey, I hope there’s something in this episode that’s sparked a bit of thought or reflection for you. If you want to keep the conversation going, you can always find me on LinkedIn. Subscribe to the podcast if you haven’t already, and keep an eye out for the next episode.

Transcript

Greg: 0:00

Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the Culturally Intelligent Safety Professional, a podcast aimed at providing a platform where by safety professionals can develop a pathway to enhance their cultural intelligence capability which will help them function more effectively when working in a multicultural situation. I'm Greg Dearsly your host and I have a range of guests lined up to talk to this year. We have people with experiences across leadership psychology, health and safety, education and of course cultural intelligence. All of our guests come from a wide range of different backgrounds across the diversity spectrum, including from different organizational context. In this podcast you'll hear stories aimed at helping you the listener enhance your cultural intelligence. You'll gain an understanding of how you can create trust when working in diverse environments and quite frankly, that's all the time no matter how homogenous the place you work at might be, it's still full of diversity, people with different backgrounds, experiences and beliefs, all built on their figured world Hey team, you asked for it and we delivered. Friend of the show, back for a third time on the Culturally Intelligent Safety Professional podcast to share some stories about what she's been up to since we spoke only a few weeks ago. Jodie Warwick-Ponga, we're gonna have to stop meeting like this, welcome to the show again what's been happening?

Jodhi: 1:33

Oh gosh, that's a really good question. What's been happening? A lot. And a lot, last, podcast, we spoke about the introduction of a new self-assessment. Since we also, met, we've continued to, to grow and to understand things. I know here within TRMA, we're also expanding and looking, participating in a discovery project at the moment to build a strategic plan for TRMA as a whole, so that hopefully we will progress. And do some great things in the future, so it's just really understanding the needs of, of our communities and then putting it into a strategic plan. So that's where we're at. We're at the moment.

Greg: 2:12

I know many have probably, heard, heard you before and know who you are, but for those that maybe haven't, do you want to, just, do a brief, pepeha and, introduce yourself to the audience?

Jodhi: 2:22

Sure. I thought I might skip and just talk a little bit about the multiple iwi that I whakapapa to, or that I, have ancestral links to. So, I whakapapa to Ngāti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa, which is the general pepehā that I share, but I also am connected to Te Atiawa via my Taranaki line, and also my Wellington line, or my Pōneke line, and also my South Island line. So, I am Ngāti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa. Rawako Raukawa, Te Atiawa, Ngati Mutunga, Ngāi Tahu. Oh, and I think that's about it. But I'd be really remiss if I also didn't acknowledge that was my mother's side. So my mother is Māori and my father is, was actually born in Wales. So he was born in Wales and moved to New Zealand in 1966. With my, my brother and my sister, my older brother and my sister and his first wife as well. And then, he met my mother a little bit later after, he separated and divorced from, his first wife. And... We like to say that he married a Ngāti Kahungunu queen, the queen of Ngāti Kahungunu ki Wairarapa. So she was very much a queen through many, and through, through her I actually have a lot of, whānau, my brothers and sisters, because she helped to raise about 30 to 40 of my cousins as well.

Greg: 3:46

As you do, as you do. Yeah. Nice. Hey, so that's really cool to learn, learn that stuff. Today we're going to go deep and we're going to talk about diversity as a dynamic resource. So Jodhi, what does that mean?

Jodhi: 4:03

You know what, I'm going to say what I said before, it was at a time when we were discussing like, hey, let's do a podcast. And then I thought, man, this will be a really cool topic because I was really learning a lot about like diversity and the importance of having diverse thought and workplaces, and then leadership and governance boards and what have you. In a nutshell, every single person brings their own uniqueness to who they are and where they come from. And they need to, we need to consider each person as an individual resource. And by bringing those uniqueness, that diversity into the workplace, it's dynamic because it's ever changing and ever moving. And we need to treat that as. I think that things that are dynamic and ever-changing are innovative, creative, and they help us to move away from a very homogenous way of thinking. But then it's through moving away from that singular way of thinking, we do become more creative, we do introduce new ways of doing things, new ways of working, and therefore, it's a resource that can help us to be more productive and to grow. And to improve. So I think that's where I was coming from when I, when I said, Hey, let's talk about this for the next podcast.

Greg: 5:30

Does that mean that it's sort of, we're really trying to push common sense off a cliff? And, and, and stop people referring to just use your common sense, because what's common to you is not necessarily going to be common to me, and, and I think, you know, I think we've been talking about that for a while, or many people in the safety world have been talking about common sense not being a, not being really a thing. It's, although common understanding. It could be a thing, right? Everybody having a common understanding of everything from organisational culture through to the individual cultures that exist within that organisation. Whether it be ethnicity, whether it be neurodiversity, whether it be gender, religion political views, sexual orientation, whatever, and so, just, just, yeah, I guess seeing all of those different diversities as, as something that is dynamic and something that, we need to be curious about so we create that common understanding.

Jodhi: 6:41

Yeah, and, you know, right now the economy is quite challenging for us here in New Zealand, especially within the construction infrastructure and some of those other, trades and industries. It's challenging at the moment and we've been really lucky for things to be quite You know, when the economy is flush, decision making is pretty easy. But when the economy is getting a little tight, we have to make some choices that are quite prudent. And with that prudence also becomes innovative and creative use of the resources that we have. So how this, how this diversity and bringing your authentic self to the workplace. Those are dynamic resources, which we can do things that we have never done before, which can increase our productivity, which can ensure that we are more sustainable. So that's why I really love the idea of having diversity and diverse thought, in any workplace, because it helps us make more informed decisions and better decisions.

Greg: 7:47

And. So one of the things, you know, I listed off a bunch of things around diversity and they're the normal things that we think about the, gender, the age, the, you know, neurodiversity, all of those things that we sort of generally understand to come under that banner. And one thing that we also use alongside that term diversity is diversity of thought, but diversity of thought is never lumped in with all of those other forms of diversity. And do you think that there's a place for that? Do you think that diversity of thought needs to be incorporated into the way that we think about diversity? You know, one of the whatever number, you know, six or seven diversities that we typically think about, should it be a normal part of that conversation?

Jodhi: 8:34

Yes, you know, sometimes when we hire and in the recruitment process, we often don't consider diversity of thought. People who, I know that when I was like hired in the past, and this was quite a while ago, we're looking for people who just fit into the team. That'd be a good fit for our culture, because they matched our culture, they had the same values, they had very similar values, very similar beliefs. And they wouldn't cause too much of a ripple. But since that time, I've been really encouraging myself and those who I have influence over, as to really look at not hiring people who exactly think like us and have the same beliefs and the same values. We need more people around us to actually have different ways of thinking, different ways of behaving, and it's still okay. It does what we do need though. Is in order for this diversity to work, we can all bring to us our authentic self to work, be it gender, age, neurodiversity, diversity of thought, different cultures. But what we need in order for this to work though, is that there is a common, shared goal or objective that we want to achieve. Some of the ways in which organizations actually don't do well when they have diverse thoughts, is that there is a common, shared goal or objective that we want to achieve. And that extreme diversity is that those extreme diversities have not got something where they, where they actually want to achieve something. And so it's all these different people achieving, wanting to do different goals. You're not going to achieve anything by that. So yes, definitely bring diverse thoughts, diverse ways of working, but also ensure that when you, you work with people that there is a known objective that you all want to achieve.

Greg: 10:38

And moving on from that, once you've done that. There's an interesting concept that's come out of the research into cultural intelligence, and it says that actually psychological safety can, can be challenged if you haven't got intellectual honesty, what they've called intellectual honesty. So you've got psychological safety where people can, you know, express their feelings without being felt what they're going to be humiliated or punished or whatever and it encourages open communication and risk-taking. But what you also need is a situation where you've got what they call intellectual honesty which is about people being able to express their different ideas. And constructively challenge each other, without fearing for their psychological safety. So actually having the, an environment where it's okay to disagree, and have a challenging conversation about whatever it might be.

Jodhi: 11:40

I know in the last podcast we spoke about the marae ātea, that space in between, where visitors are welcomed on and then going into the whare nui. That ātea space is, if you think about it there, that is the god of war, that is the realm where he plays. So, that is the, that is where all the challenges occur. That's a, that's a intellectually honest space. So you'll see in Pōheri, and I'm sure you saw it, in, not the tangihanga for Kingi Tuheitia, but you may have seen it in other, locations of Pōheri where you'll see the, the haukainga or even the manuhiri, the visitors and the home people. They'll bring up things out in that area, and they'll discuss it, knowing full well that is the place for those challenges to occur. And then once you move into the whare nui, that's settled. So that's a, that's a culturally, sorry, and I guess you might call that the intellectually honest space, where there is a parameters, where there is an area for which it is okay for those things to occur. And I think that's one thing that workplaces don't actually allow for and we haven't created, is spaces for intellectual honesty to be allowed to occur and for the space an expectation that it will occur in that space. So I spoke about where we at the Marae for recent team meeting. There was a training space and there were times when feedback was welcome and it was robust feedback. It was in that space where feedback could be allowed an in as soon as that time frame and that, that presentation, that receiving feedback was finished. That was the end of it. But knowing full well, though, that the team had further opportunities where there was going to be that opportunity to have robust discussion. But sometimes we need to set up parameters, set up timeframes, know that there is a structure for when we can have intellectual honesty, and then people have no fear of retribution, they know that they can speak freely. Because it's not always easy for it to be a dynamic space for us to have intellectual honesty, because sometimes it's not always time for you to give feedback. It may be too late sometimes, but there should always be opportunity for it to be allowed.

Greg: 14:13

So one of the things we talked about last time, you gave some, I guess recommendations about what people can do to be more culturally intelligent. And one of the, one of the points you made, was to reflect on your own personal past challenges. And, and I guess what I'm thinking that means is think about the cultures, the cultural norms and values, and this doesn't have to be about ethnicity. It could be about anything, right? Any, any aspect of diversity that challenges you. What do you get frustrated by? What don't you understand? You know, I remember one of the things that, that really challenged me. It challenged me many years ago when I first heard that the Whanganui River was going to be given legal recognition similar to that of a person, and I'm going, what's that all about, you know? And, and, but, but I get it now, because I had it explained to me, I had a conversation with somebody about it, and now we know that, that there's, there's three, taonga, I guess, in New Zealand that, that have got that, that status with the, the Whanganui River, the Urewera's is it, and, Taranaki. And, and I understand it. And so, if you ask that reflective question, then some of those challenging questions actually go away. And I guess it's part of, of developing your cultural intelligence. And so, you talked about that, and the other thing... What we talked about was about reflection, and again, you've got to go through that process of reflection to understand what you think and, and what challenges you. And one part of cultural intelligence is about strategy, and strategy's made up of three components, right? It's, it's, it's about planning, and it's about thinking about how you're going to engage in an upcoming situation. That is going to be culturally diverse. That planning gives you the ability to be adaptable in the moment, so that you can go into that situation, and, interact appropriately with some knowledge. And then the last piece is about, reflective practice. And I think it's something that health and safety professionals, if my observations are correct, really struggle with that, particularly with their own professional development. It's one of the hardest pieces they find because everybody wants to just go and do a bit of CPD and have some points scored for it and not have to worry about it again. But actually that doesn't really create a lot of learning. Maybe that's just... Reflective practices, which will help you understand, whether you achieved your goals going into that situation. Was there anything else you learnt? And I shared that story about the koha, right, going into the marae, I'd been told by a cultural advisor that the koha was to be placed on the floor, but actually, the person that told me that was from a different iwi, and the iwi that we were at had a different cultural practice. And so, It wasn't to be placed on the floor, it had to be passed hand to hand and, and there I am freaking out that I've, I've created some sort of, you know, I've done something really bad. Right, yeah. So, so the reflection piece is really important. How, how do you see... Reflection being built into what we do around enhancing our cultural intelligence, particularly as it relates to Māori culture. How can people do that, so that they continually learn?

Jodhi: 18:07

One thing about reflection is, and I spoke, I had a, I was catching up with some interns yesterday, from an organisation. And I shared with them about our, our latest, self-reflective tool. And I shared with them too that self-reflection is really important for us to do, but when we're unfamiliar and we're doing a reflection, and it challenges who we are and how we behave. It's important that you have a mentor or someone who you can talk to when you're self-reflecting because self-reflecting can be quite confronting. And it can, you can kind of beat yourself up a little bit when you're doing self-reflection. So what I suggested to these interns was when you're participating or you're, you're actually filling this self-reflective, pool to make sure that you have someone to talk to about this. Like you, you spoke to me about like, oh, I, I jumped back and, and then I shared, oh, we would have all been, if it was us as the Haukanga, we would have had a little giggle in the background about it. And it's not that we're laughing at you, it will, because we, we may have seen that before. But unless you have someone to bounce back and say, hey, okay, those things happen. You could end up in a downward spiral and then kind of give up, and that's not what we, we want you to do. We don't want you to give up. Know that and normalize. It's okay to, those little faux pas happen. Those little things that we didn't know. You don't have to know everything about a culture to, to learn about it, but in that self-reflective process, make sure that you first know that there's a soft place to fall, know that there's someone who you can talk to to talk those things out because you can't go through this alone. It's quite confronting and challenging. But you do, yeah, I just can't say it enough that make sure that you put yourself into a safe space as well. and have that soft, soft person to call. I know I've got someone who called me yesterday. I'm his little, I feel kind of unusual because I'm like his cultural mentor. And I love having calls with him too because, because he's always quite stressed and, and he's like, Jodhi, I did this and I don't, and I'm like, did you do this, this, this, and this? He goes, yes. And I went, don't worry about it. It's okay. This is the impact that you occurred. What the impact is not as bad as you may have thought it was. That's okay. But you need a person to, to bounce things off. I know that I have my own cultural mentor as well. I have actually a few people who I, I bounce ideas off and then who I can actually go, Oh, this is really dumb. I feel stupid. And they'll just kind of help me and give me feedback about how I can improve the next time around. Have the opportunity available to you.

Greg: 21:10

Yeah, absolutely. You said something earlier on in that, about, about you don't have to know everything about a culture. Absolutely, and that would be unachievable, right? You, you, you just, it's not possible to know every single thing about every culture, particularly when we start thinking about, And when taking it away from just ethnicity and we think about all of those other aspects of diversity, and I, and I guess the challenge is enhancing your cultural intelligence aimed at the cultures that you most interact with or are interested in. And so if you've got a high Māori population, sure, you might go out and learn as much as you can about, about Māori culture or if, if maybe you're doing a project and I guess one of my sort of pet areas of interest is the whole neurodiversity thing and dyslexia and understanding how safety professionals can better, create content and learning Taking dyslexic people into consideration as well as Maori as well as, you know, Filipino or, or whatever. And so one of the things that's come out of the research around cultural intelligence is, and this is going to sound counterintuitive to what we're talking about, is that knowing a lot about cultures can be a dangerous thing. Oh, yes. And so what it's saying is, if you're recruiting, you're probably better to recruit somebody who's not highly culturally intelligent, because they're more likely, you would hope, to be curious and inquisitive. And want to learn stuff rather than the person that claims to know everything because you don't really want to employ the smartest person in the room. I suspect. And, and so it is better to recruit somebody who has got ideas rather than the person that claims to know everything because you don't really want to employ the smartest person in the room. The opportunity to learn and, and, you know, got an example of, that. We recently, over the last couple of years at INSHPO have, launched, an intern program. And having gone through the recruitment process now three times to place interns into that governance environment. The people that have been successful have been the ones that have got the most to gain. It's not about. What we gain. Yes, there is an aspect of that that we will benefit by having this resource, but what we're trying to create is an environment or a place for somebody who has got the most to learn about being in this environment. So we don't want the person that's got the. The most amount of international governance experience, we want somebody that aspires to become more involved. And, and so those are the people that have ended up being successful through the recruitment of the, you know, the candidates that have got the most gain. And, and, and so that takes it away, it might not sound on the face of it to be a culture, discussion, but it is, because it's about the, the different cultures from an education perspective or a knowledge perspective of the people that we're putting into those roles, into an international organisation which has got a different culture to, you know, in this case a New Zealand, you know, business.

Jodhi: 24:41

Absolutely. You touched on, you touched on not always having the most knowledgeable person, and they're not always, probably not always the most culturally intelligent person. There is that balance that they need to have, so you need to have that curiosity. You need to have... That, yes, it's great to have knowledge, but you also need to have people who can be adaptable and can change to different situations and interactions. But also on top of that, you need people who can actually put things into play. And it's the people who can act upon what they know to be culturally intelligent. So sometimes the people who are most knowledgeable, they put them, they put their own barriers in front of them that prevent the organization and the individuals and those for the influence from actually progressing because these start too many limitations because they have such a great knowledge. I know I've seen that within my own community. Spaces that I've worked within that we hire the most knowledgeable. I'm going to use health and safety, for example, rather than a Māori one. We hire some amazing health and safety managers or advisors and their, well their managers, and they've got so much knowledge and understanding of legislation and hazards and risks and, and all of those sort of things. But then they get into the workplace and they have no idea how to motivate individuals around them. They... Are so used to, and because, you know, health and safety is such, so broad, they may be hazardous substance, super nerds and completely scholars around hazardous substances, but then they know nothing about machinery, and they're not curious enough to find out more about that. They rather focus on what their, their strength is. So, in terms of a health and safety concept, or within that context, It's not always the person who's the most knowledgeable who's going to get things done. It's those who have that four-way, they're, they're motivated, they know how to, strategically do things, and then they know how to act on those things, but they're also have their own drive

Greg: 26:54

So right at the beginning you talked about aligning, all of our diverse perspectives with organizational goals. One of the things I see with cultural intelligence, and it's a, I think it's a thing that Many organizations struggle with is worker engagement. And I see cultural intelligence, or enhancing cultural intelligence, at a team level, at an organizational level, as a perfect scenario or opportunity to create worker engagement and participation. By getting different cultures together, getting their perspectives on a policy or a procedure or a way of doing work or, or where the Christmas party is going to be this year. You know, whatever it might be, I, I just see it as, because I think we beat ourselves up so much about this worker engagement stuff. And, oh yeah, we've got to have this many reps and we've got to have a committee and we've got to do this. And maybe that's true and maybe it's not, you know, but I think one of the things to really create real participation is leveraging of organisational, or creating organisational intelligence by connecting everybody together at a cultural level. And again, I keep saying it's not just about ethnicities, I'm not saying let's get the Māori worker and the Tongan worker and the Filipino worker together to have a chat about stuff. It's, it's, you know, let's, let's have a talk about the, neurodiversity issues that we have in the workplace. You know, are we creating all of this paperwork that a percentage of, of, people don't understand? Somebody, somebody posed a question recently at a presentation around neurodiversity, actually, now that I've got onto that bandwagon. What's an acceptable percentage of workers to not communicate with effectively in a workplace? How about that for a question?

Jodhi: 29:16

That is, wow, that's a great question. And what was the response then?

Greg: 29:22

He wasn't looking for an answer. It was just, you know, it's sort of like the old question of, what's an acceptable LTI rate? You know, it's what's the acceptable number of, of workers. That we are prepared to not communicate effectively with, and so you could take that and you can consider it from a neurodiverse perspective, you can consider it from an English as a second language perspective, you can consider it as, from a perspective of you've got a bunch of workers who don't do particularly well at school,

Jodhi: 29:51

See, and I'll probably throw the question back then. My question will be is what's the impact of not engaging with that percentage of workers? Correct.

Greg: 29:59

Right? That's the second question that comes out of that. And I will, I'm going to try it. You know, the next time I'm around a board table somewhere talking to an organisation, I might put that question out there and I'll be interested in how that is responded to.

Jodhi: 30:19

See, and I will be a bit cheeky and I'll probably throw back some statistics. The, the, if you think about not engaging with Māori, in the workplace, well, they're 51 percent more likely to be harmed in the workplace. So the impact is to them as individuals, them as their community, the productivity of the workplace. The impact is huge by not engaging with certain, maybe not percentages, but maybe different various groups of people. So if you have a, it really depends. That's a such a, a divisive question. It's a great question to throw back at people. But yeah, it's got me thinking it about a whole lot of different other questions. And that's one thing that's really good about having that opportunity for people when you create that intellectual honesty within your own, workplace. Thank you. They can ask questions like that and then it makes us think further about what we're doing for worker engagement. Are we truly leveraging off by going out to these different various, groups, working groups and say, Hey, can you please read this and give me some feedback? Because you know, if it's a policy or procedure and you're giving it to a group of workers, very few will actually give you feedback. I'd like to think that I would give you feedback, but then it all comes down to what of a priority this has for me. How much effect does it have on my or impact does it have on my everyday working life? And how I, that's really how much it impacts me and if I have the time to do it. So what's the use of engaging if you haven't provided space for the engagement to occur?

Greg: 32:11

Into your environment. You know construction and with that question in the back of your mind you know you think about the morning toolbox talk where there's a supervisor standing up the front of the smoko shed or or wherever with a 10 page JSEA and going through it and What percentage of the workers are you not connecting with by doing that process? Talking to them about a bunch of stuff that is probably irrelevant. Or, let's say it's not, not all of it is relevant to them and most of it probably is not relevant in that format of, some 10-page document that somebody's yapping at them at the front of the room. You know? And then yeah, then ask that question. I mean I don't know what the answer's going to be in terms of how many people are you not connecting with, are you not communicating effectively with. I would suggest it's a large percentage of that group of people that are not engaged, not connected. And all at the, all Toolbox. Meeting format is doing is ticking a box somewhere.

Jodhi: 33:26

I'm going to throw a question back at you. Oh dear. From from your experience and it's vast and. I, I, what do you think is stopping us from effective worker engagement?

Greg: 33:43

I think it's, I think it's a lack of knowledge at an organisational level of, to bang my own drum, cultural intelligence really. It's a lack of understanding people. And, trying to communicate and connect with people. In the way maybe that we would prefer to be connected and engaged with, rather than thinking about the values and norms of the people who we are stewards of as, as organisational owners. I mean, yes, there's some good examples out there of, of good worker engagement. I've seen it. I've heard about it. And not from managers, you know, but I, I'm not sure that it's the majority. I think, I think to get better worker engagement, we need to better understand the people, not the process, not the HR process, not the health and safety process that we've got to do it this way. I mean, I'm an advocate of learning teams, but, but learning teams have got to be done properly in terms of engaging with the people. Not. necessarily following a set process. It's just about having a genuine conversation. You've probably got to create trust and inspiration. A little while ago I was on a bit of a bandwagon around the elimination of Command and Control type approaches and workplaces and this came all came out of the book. It's called Trust and Iinspire by Stephen Covey Junior and saying that you know the command and control model does not create trust and inspiration. And that's really what you want to get with your workforce. Is that they trust that there's two way trust actually. And, probably two-way inspiration that workers are inspired by the business and the business is inspired by its workers. And if you've got that, then, you know, the pathway to worker engagement surely has got to be better.

Jodhi: 36:06

You know, the, it's really easy for us to come onto these podcasts and talk about the really great way of practicing and stuff like that. And the reason I asked that question was, is that it's a question I'm often asked, and a lot of high expectations are also placed on me as a health and safety practitioner, and now as, like, TRMA, Te Ropu Marutauo is growing its reputation and things like that, still working within the corporate world, there's a higher expectation placed on me to actually have amazing teams, have amazing worker engagement and all of that. And whilst I have a lot of the tools and the keys and, and the knowledge and the understanding, the hardest part that I'm actually finding is actually having the time, having the time to engage. So one of the greatest barriers that I find as a leader in trying to have effective worker engagement is time. To be culturally intelligent, to... To connect with people, to ensure that we're good stewards in our leadership positions requires a considerable amount of time, which most people in positions of leadership, senior leaders don't actually have. It's because we, we're stretched thin. We do a lot of things within our own communities as well, which means that our nine to five jobs. I'm often nine to five, or after five jobs, actually can be as late as 2am. So those early mornings too when we're alone and we can actually do the work that we need to for our communities. So when I think of what's stopping us from effective worker engagement, I say that there's not enough time.

Greg: 37:55

And does that come down to different perceptions of time? Because there's, there's, you know, there's, there's obviously different values and norms around the concept of time. And there's some older research, and I think I mentioned this in the, when I presented it at Hazans, that time is the most popular word. Sorry, the most popular noun in the English languages. And the research that found that, and the reason I say it's a little bit older. Is that it's cited, searches on yahoo.com, and I'm not sure that anybody's got a Yahoo account anymore, but, I went and sort of dug a little bit deeper into it and, and, and did the same sort of just random search on Google and, and yeah, time was, time was right up there. But if you go to non-English speaking."...cultures". Time is, is not irrelevant but nowhere near as important a concept as it is in, in English speaking countries. You know, we're always late, we've gotta be on time, can't be late, the calendar rules your life. All of those sorts of things. And yeah, so it's just understanding how that works, you know, across cultures as well.

Jodhi: 39:19

I had some Pasifika friends and they, what they did was, so this roopu or this group, they, it was just a collection of Pasifika people from various, organizations coming together and to strategically plan. So they were part of larger organizations, but they were told to come together and strategically plan, how they can move forward and grow awareness of Pacific needs and peoples. And what they said was, is that it was really hard, and they shared, my friend shared with me, that it was really hard to bring this concept of coming with an outcome into a Pacific realm, because the concepts of time were that, What will be, will be. We will come out with what we come out with. We're not going to be constrained by trying to engage in this. But what will be, will be. So it was understanding that this is a time for us to use this relational space to come together, to be one, but don't worry about the outcome. So, I learnt from them that sometimes I had to not always worry about what the outcome was going to be. Don't always worry too much about everything that's happening around you, but be in the space with that individual or with that group, and just get to be there, be present, and not always look forward, and like, try to plan everything around that. But I, if I was going to give some like, something back to leaders, something back to workers as well, is that now that, Know that your managers and your senior leaders, their intent is quite broad and, they've got a lot which they are managing. But they always are looking to be good stewards of the people whom they have. They're also looking to be stewards and prudent with the financial, the finances that the company has as well. But to be patient with them, and when I say patience, it's not, just be, allow them to have this or just to wait, but be long allowing in how you do things. So allow for them to have space, allow for them to have time, but do come back to them and say to them, Hey, I'm just checking in, how are you doing? Have you made this decision? And they will engage with you, but sometimes you need to be motivated and proactive in what you need to do. But be allowing too, that all good decisions require more detail, they require diverse thought. But be patient and long-allowing with your leaders.

Greg: 42:15

Hey, look, I'm going to say that's a great ending to leave this episode with. And I know we sort of, we came into this just really to have a chat. About whatever came up. And I think we've achieved that objective and just talked about a bunch of stuff. And, and yeah, I think that's a great takeaway for people to consider and reflect on how they might achieve that in their workplaces, in their roles and their roles as an individual. Because I want could create a pathway for them to be seen as a leader, through their enhanced understanding of, of their own culture, their own cultural approach. Because you can't actually be culturally intelligent until you understand yourself from that perspective. And so yeah, I just just again thanks for your time Jodhi and look forward to maybe chatting again soon.

Jodhi: 43:18

Ngā mihi Greg once again for your support and all your tautoko, take care and be safe.

Greg: 43:24

Alright, team, that brings us to the end of this episode and what a conversation it's been huge thanks again to Jody Warwick Ponga for joining us and for bringing such grounded, powerful insights into this space. There's a few key takeaways I wanna leave you with today. First, that idea of diversity is a dynamic resource jodhi reminded us that every person brings something unique to the table. And when we embrace that, we open the door to creativity, innovation, and more effective decision making. Second, we talked a lot about intellectual honesty. It's not just about making space for people to feel safe speaking up, but also creating the expectation that it's okay to disagree and challenge ideas constructively. That's where real growth happens. Third, it's not just about ticking the CPD box, but truly reflecting on our own beliefs, biases, and blind spots. If we want to develop cultural intelligence, we have to start with understanding ourselves when we reflect and finally time. Jodhi raised an important point that being culturally intelligent takes time. Time to build trust. Time to connect, time to be present, and sometimes that's the biggest challenge of all in leadership. So wherever you are at in your journey. I hope there's something in this episode that sparked a little bit of thought or reflection for you. I'll drop the transcript into the show notes and if you wanna keep the conversation going, you can always find me on LinkedIn subscribe to the podcast if you haven't done so already. And keep an eye out for the next episode. Until then, thanks so much for listening. Take care. Be safe and stay curious, mā te wā.