The Culturally Intelligent Safety Professional

CQSP S2E12 Beyond the Hijab: Creating Safe Workplaces for Muslims with Dr Hend Zaki

Greg Dearsly Season 2 Episode 12

What a though provoking conversation with Dr Hend Zaki, we covered a lot of ground from hijab and handshakes to halal food and prayer rooms and how these realities impact Muslims at work every single day. What’s clear is that workplaces can’t just rely on general diversity policies. To ensure people feel seen and supported, organisations need to embed inclusion into their systems, their leadership, and their everyday interactions.

What stood out most to me in this conversation was just how much inclusion depends on curiosity the kind that moves beyond surface-level gestures and into real cultural understanding. Hend’s experiences and research highlight that meaningful inclusion for Muslim professionals doesn’t just happen by accident it requires intention, humility, and structure.

Here are five key lessons and actions for health and safety professionals and workplace leaders looking to build more inclusive environments for Muslim colleagues:

 Five Key Lessons + Actions for Inclusive Workplaces

1. Belonging Doesn’t Come from Appearance — It Comes from Acceptance

Action: Build real connection by getting to know your team personally. Inclusion is felt when people are treated as whole individuals, not stereotypes.

2. Visibility of Difference Must Not Lead to Isolation

Action: Educate staff on the diversity within Islam and avoid assumptions. Foster curiosity over judgment — especially around topics like hijab, prayer, and gender dynamics.

3. Support Cultural Needs Through Systems, Not Just Goodwill

Action: Formalize accommodations in onboarding kits and HR policies — e.g., prayer spaces, flexibility during Ramadan, halal food at events. Don't rely on employees having to ask.

4. Respect Goes Beyond Handshakes

Action: Normalize alternative greetings. Teach teams that gestures like placing a hand on the heart are respectful and rooted in religious values — not a sign of disengagement.

5. Psychological Safety Requires Cultural Intelligence

Action: Train leaders to recognize unconscious bias and ingroup/outgroup dynamics. Understand how stereotypes and media narratives may silently shape workplace behavior.

Greg:

Hi, everyone welcome to another episode of the Culturally Intelligent Safety Professional, a podcast aimed at providing a platform where by safety professionals can develop a pathway to enhance their cultural intelligence capability which will help them function more effectively when working in a multicultural situation. I'm Greg Dearsly your host and I have a range of guests lined up to talk to this year. We have people with experiences across leadership, psychology, health and safety, education and of course cultural intelligence. All of our guests come from a wide range of different backgrounds across the diversity spectrum, including from different organizational context. In this podcast you'll hear stories aimed at helping you the listener enhance your cultural intelligence. You'll gain an understanding of how you can create trust when working in diverse environments and quite frankly, that's all the time no matter how homogenous the place you work at might be, it's still full of diversity, people with different backgrounds, experiences and beliefs, all built on their figured world This episode we catch up with Dr. Hend Zaki. Dr. Zaki is the founder of Women of Color in the Public Sector Network and also Zaki Consulting where she helps women connect, support one another and thrive together. Hend has over 15 years of experience in government, regional and international organizations, and is passionate about creating inclusive and thriving environments. Through her consulting company she has developed programs to support women from diverse ethnic backgrounds. She holds a PhD in politics and international relations from the University of Auckland and specializes in intersectionality, identity and belonging. Her experiences as an international student researcher, employee, and migrant provide her with a deep understanding of the challenges faced by women from diverse backgrounds, migrants and Muslims in New Zealand and abroad. Hend is dedicated to supporting and uplifting women from diverse ethnic backgrounds. Originally from Egypt, she moved to New Zealand in 2015 with her family and has previously lived in the UK and the US. She speaks Arabic and English, Hend honored to have you on the show.

Hend:

Thank you so much, Greg. It's a pleasure to be here.

Greg:

So we were just talking before you've just come back from some time abroad in, Egypt, and you were saying that it's it's a pretty similar temperature at times to Auckland and despite my lack of knowledge of Egypt, it rains a little bit there. So you had a great trip.

Hend:

It was one. Yeah, we had a great trip. We were there in April. So it was good. It was good weather, really good weather.

Greg:

Excellent. So Hend your career and your journey spans multiple continents and multiple cultures. With all of that, what personal experiences first sparked your curiosity about the intersection of identity, belonging and the Muslim experience in multicultural societies like New Zealand?

Hend:

Yeah, great question. I was actually reflecting on that a little while ago. I'm originally from Egypt but I spent my childhood in the UK and I did my undergraduate in the US and I came here to New Zealand to do my PhD with my family. So I've lived in different western societies as a Muslim. From my experiences as a child, when I was seven years old, I moved from Cairo to the UK with my family'cause my dad was studying there. And during that time we spent five years in the uk. We moved every single year'cause my dad was getting specific trainings from different hospitals. And every year we would move houses, we would move cities, we would move school. And I didn't understand how significant this was until I became older. Reflecting on this experience because by the time I was 11, I went to six or seven different schools, lived in about six, seven different homes. And when I came back to Egypt, I felt like I've had this amazing experience and even though I was with people who looked like me, I did not have that sense of belonging.'cause I had this experience and I didn't understand that. So that's my experience of being different in the UK and having that experience, but then going back home to Egypt and still feel like you don't have that sense of belonging. While I was an undergraduate in the US, 9/11 happened. So I arrived there about two weeks before and that got me, if you read the research is a lot of Muslims went into a questioning phase about who they are, what they believe, and after that I was like, yes, I'm a Muslim, this is what I practice and this was my decision. And I for me it was. I started raising awareness about Islam and I started getting more interested into the identity of Muslims in western societies. I did my masters on the identity of Muslims in the US and then I built on it with my PhD research on the identity of Muslims in New Zealand or Australia. But I was also reflecting how I actually had a sense of belonging in the US because from day one when I was at university, I started working at the library and the communities there, like the librarians became my kind of family. They became my Whanau and they just accepted me. They really were like just, they were my aunties. They check on me. And I've had that sense of belonging there because of them, but I was only able to reflect on that the older I got. So sometimes you have a sense of belonging with people that sometimes don't look like you, but they do give you that kind of acceptance.

Greg:

Yeah, absolutely. And I guess that leads to that feeling of inclusion. And that must have been extremely challenging, as well being in the US at that time. And I think in one of our previous conversations, you or it might have been one of the training courses of yours that I've been on, you talked about having made a decision that you were going to wear a hijab, and this was before you went to the US and you were this young, I think, 17-year-old in that environment when that event occurred, which must have been equally challenging as it was the positive stuff that you got out of those relationships with some of the people that you worked with. So I guess in, in your research you talk a little bit about visibility of Muslim individuals, particularly the hijab. And so what practical steps can people in workplaces, in western countries like New Zealand take to ensure that visibility of difference, doesn't translate into isolation, discrimination and psychological harm in a workplace.

Hend:

Just having an open mind and not making assumptions about people. Even Muslims are very diverse. So just not going into a lot of people like look at Muslim women and feel like they're oppressed because they're wearing the headscarf and actually the story behind that could be something totally different. Islam does not oppress women. There's a different, there's various reasons why Muslim women wear the headscarf. There is a verse in the Koran, and there are different interpretations, but most scholars agree that it requires Muslim women to wear the headscarf. So they wear it. If they wear it because the, for the most part, they've chosen that based on their understanding and their beliefs, and it's part of their identity. It's not because their husbands has forced them to do it, or their male or their fathers have forced them to do it. So there's. Usually it's not that. So it's just going in with an open mind and not making assumptions, and when you ask questions, just asking it respectfully. Yeah, because it might be for the person you're asking this person this question for the first time you're trying to learn from them, but they've probably been asked this question a hundred of times. So if there's a way you can maybe Google search first and then ask deeper questions, that would also be helpful.

Greg:

Interestingly, I've just come away today from a an unconscious bias presentation and I think that's what you're talking to, right? You're saying rather than I guess, acting on your unconscious bias, become curious as you say, ask those respectful questions and understand that. It's simply a different worldview. And, that's the worldview that people that follow that religion or worldview, make those decisions. The majority of which, as you say, are not forced upon them. And I think it's just, it's, part of it's probably a lack of visibility of that outside of the Muslim world. Certainly a long way away from New Zealand. And yeah, I think as, as more knowledge gets out there and people do take time to be curious, try to understand rather than judge. I think that's an important piece. In your research. You conducted a number of interviews and many of your respondents talked about balancing their, practices like prayer or a halal dietary needs in a Western environment. And again, in a workplace, how can leaders in a workplace proactively build inclusive environments to take those types of things into consideration? When they've got what is now probably a multicultural workplace no matter where you look?

Hend:

Yeah, absolutely. So teams are becoming more diverse and it's the responsibility of the people leader to get to know their needs of the team they're leading every, so even if it's a Muslim or non-Muslim, or just understanding them and knowing who they are as people. Also, it's important to communicate that you're willing to accommodate. Because sometimes as a Muslim or any other ethnicity, if they want to be accommodated, sometimes they might find it hard to ask for this accommodation. So it's good to maybe if it's just to first of all understand the needs of your team and also to put it in writing somewhere maybe an onboarding toolkit where you say that you can accommodate and you can provide examples of what the accommodation looks like. For example, if you know that you have your team member is a Muslim and that person will be fasting Ramadan. So communicate that, that you're willing to may to accommodate them. Because what that means is that they'll be fasting from sunrise to sunset. Also, understand what facilities exist within your workplace.'Cause I remember I was working in a workplace and when I asked if I can pray, yes, I was shown into an interview room and this is where you can pray. But then I found out there was actually a prayer room. But the team leader didn't really know that there was a prayer room, and I found out by accident. So also under the team leader can understand what resources are available and putting it again in writing and communicating that to their team members.

Greg:

Your experience around New Zealand over the last few years is the an increased availability of some of those resources. I know I've seen rooms set aside, and I think you and I had this conversation a little while ago about, it doesn't necessarily just have to be prayer room for people who follow, Muslim or who are Muslim. It can be a room used for any other type of, sort of private activity that other people in the workplace might need or want. Is that becoming more normal, do you think in New Zealand workplaces?

Hend:

Yeah, in some places more than others. So for example, it doesn't, as you mentioned, it doesn't have to be just a prayer room. It could be a reflection room, it could be a quiet area, just the clean place where someone can go. And the prayer usually takes just a few minutes, like maximum five minutes. So they Muslim and one or Muslims pray five times a day. And usually it's one or two prayers that fall within the workday. So it doesn't take that much time from the workday. It could be even a room where people go when they're not feeling well, like it just could be a place where they can go, where to do the prayer.

Greg:

Yeah. You I guess just talking more about your research and back on the 9/11 sort of subject and those, some of those negative social narratives and how they shape the Muslims experience in a western setting, how do you think that these or did your research uncover how these perceptions impacted psychological safety in workplaces and maybe crikey, there may have been other types of unsafe situations, not just psychological. Was there evidence of that in your in your research?

Hend:

Yeah. 9/11 have put so Muslims have been seen through a security lens. And often with suspicion, often if someone's not culturally competent, the way they will deal with Muslims is that there, there won't be a trust. There's something called ingroup and outgroup dynamics, and which means that with people are part of your ingroup, you trust them they will progress more. You'll, the way you'll see their work, it'll be more positive. But when they're part of your outgroup that will be, they'll be perceived negatively. They have to work extra hard to prove themselves. They won't progress as much. So it's really important if you have a team leader for them to be aware that they do have biases and how to put those biases in check. And that's not just for Muslims, it's for anyone. But yes, there's definitely, Muslims have faced so many challenges, particularly because of the misconceptions and the stereotypes around them. And that's why when you interact with a Muslim, it's just to be aware that you can, you could have, could be impacted by the media and what on TV and even comes to an extent that you might not empathize with them because of your unconscious bias and what you perceive Muslims to be.

Greg:

I've read a couple of books recently of Muslim people that had been in New Zealand and have talked of I guess their experiences as both young children and young adults. And some of the, I guess the negative feedback, negative behaviors that they've faced. And I would like to think that some of that stuff is starting to turn around as more and more people become, aware, understanding. I guess we had that tragic event in in 2019. Which, I talked to most New Zealanders who would say, I hadn't even considered that type of thing would happen here. I think now it's just in some ways has to be expected that it could happen here. Again. And and but hopefully the, some of the work that, that you are doing and many others is promoting the acceptance and understanding of people that are different because, we just have to, don't we? Because. We are living in that type of environment where everybody is in the same place. So it's just not appropriate to, to think that your way is the only way. And understanding each other's worldview is important.

Hend:

Yeah. And seeing that diversity adds value and it's a it's a power. It's not something to fear. It's actually. It benefits businesses, it benefits the workplace, having diverse views and everyone adds value. So just if you look at, see, seeing the world as it's only done one way that doesn't benefit anyone, it's actually diversity is power.

Greg:

Yeah, absolutely. Something that I'm really interested in that I don't know a lot about, to be honest, is the difference between Muslim and Islam. And looking, be interested to, to get your explanation of the two differences and where the two sort of contexts can get used and helping workplaces try and understand which, how they should be talking to their people in terms of both of those contexts. So can you explain a little bit about the, those two terms?

Hend:

So Islam is the religion and Muslims are the people who practice Islam. So that's the differentiation between the both.

Greg:

Yes. And I think, did I hear something recently that the Philippines is the biggest Muslim population in the world? Indonesia, I believe. Yeah. Yeah. That part of the world, yeah. Wow. That's that's that's really interesting. And and so what are some of the things that you've talked about prayer rooms. Is there anything else in workplaces that, can be implemented to create more access, equity, inclusion for Muslim people?

Hend:

Yeah, so one thing is that the handshake, so we all know when we meet someone you put your hand up and you shake their hands. And that's considered common, but it's not so for Muslims sometimes there's restrictions about interaction with the opposite sex, so opposite gender. So a Muslim woman won't shake hands many Muslim women won't shake hands was the opposite gender and the same thing. Men won't shake hands was the opposite gender, especially if it's someone who's not related to them. So that causes sometimes a misunderstanding. But basically when you, the advice is when you meet a Muslim from the opposite gender is to wait for them to put their hand up. If they don't, they might just put their hand on their heart and just Yes. Express that they're very happy to meet you. And that has nothing to do with you. It's first it is just the way that their preference of how to express that the respect. And that they are happy to meet the person in front of them. It's not a handshake. It could be something else. And that needs to be normalized because we had a discussion, I remember in our workshop, Greg, and there's things that came up. It's actually not just Muslims. There are so many other cultures that don't shake hands, but there's also other reasons. For example, after COVID, someone might have low immunity and they don't want to shake hands or a neurodivergant and they don't wanna shake hands again. So there are many, so many other reasons and just thinking of the shaking of the hands is the only way that we greet people that needs to be changed in the workplace and to just accept. That there are different ways. That doesn't show any disrespect or anything. Actually. No. It shows that they still respect the person. They're still happy to meet them, but they'll greet them differently. So I think that's just something that needs to be normalized. Yeah. And that the workplace as a people leader or someone who's leading an organization, that could be something in writing somewhere that there are different ways of greeting one another and we should just accept that. The other thing is halal food. And some organizations do that better than the better. So for example, the Ministry for Ethnic Communities, if you go to any of their events, the food there is Halal, they say, and they provide also different dietary requirements. The thing with sometimes was events here in New Zealand, and even sometimes with schools, you'll ask they'll say, what's your dietary requirements or preferences? And you'll put Halal. But actually the organizers don't know what Halal is. So they'll just think that halal means vegetarian, which it doesn't mean vegetarian. So it's not just you've asked, you've done the work, you've asked the person what they want to eat, they've provided to you, and then you go and you don't find that. So that's not being inclusive and asking them, but then actually not actually fulfilling that requirement. And it makes the person sometimes feel outta place because halal food is that Muslims can eat a chicken, they can eat beef, they can't eat pork, but it has to, the beef or chicken has to be halal, but also you have to avoid a cross-contamination. So if you are serving ham, you need to make sure, or pork, you need to make sure that it's not cooked in the same pot as the chicken or the beef that you say is halal. If you're able to provide vegan, you're able to provide gluten-free, then it's not as hard to provide Halal. It's just, I think it just needs awareness. If you're gonna ask people what they eat and then they provide you what they eat and then you're not able to provide it it's just, it's a bit tricky. So it's just awareness, I think.

Greg:

Yes. And I was thinking about the gluten-free concept that to be truly gluten-free, it actually needs to be prepared. In a different kitchen almost and it's particularly dangerous, I guess for people that might have Celiacs disease. It's not necessarily an issue for people that just follow fad of gluten-free. But when there's a genuine medical need then obviously it's gotta be prepared properly. So if we can do that for gluten. What's the hardship in doing it for halal type products that, that might be needed. And I guess there's been some controversy around that recently in New Zealand with some of the school lunch programs, which is probably another discussion for another day.

Hend:

And Halal food is very, it's available in some supermarkets. There's the, for example, halal sausages are available. Yep. There's lots of butchers around. There's even caterers when you tell them they know that they can't have to provide it.

Greg:

And it's about the way that it's processed. Correct.

Hend:

It's, yeah, the Halal food is the way the like the sheep or the chicken is killed and then it has to be done in a specific way. And actually in New Zealand, it's available because New Zealand exports a lot of the chicken to the Muslim world. Yes. So it's not easy. It's not hard to find.

Greg:

What do you think might be a couple of things. As I'm a health and safety professional. This podcast is probably listened to by a bunch of health and safety people. What do you think people in those types of roles can do to, a facilitate their own? Cultural intelligence around Muslim and Islam. But also to help their workplaces better understand and include diversity and in this case, Muslim diversity into the workplaces they work with. Something that, a couple of things that health and safety people could could specifically do.

Hend:

So we've talked about just raising, being aware of Muslims needs at work, especially like during Ramadan, especially understanding the type of work that's done during,'cause the, during Ramadan people fast from sunrise to sunset, so understanding when that timeframe is because it's 10 days early every year. So understanding when those days are. You can attend my workshop, which I provide information about the Islam, Muslims, and identity, and yeah, we're just familiarizing yourself with the, with Islam and Muslims and just understanding that people can be different in the workplace and require different needs.

Greg:

And that speaks to a component of cultural intelligence which is the knowledge piece, Or some might call it cultural competency, cultural knowledge, CQ knowledge is what we call it in the CQ world. And that's really knowing it's more than knowing, but it probably is also understanding the why behind some of the values and the norms that that you might be trying to get a better handle on and understand why certain things are done and why I need to behave in this way and not shake hands with that person and all of those sorts of things. And so it really is about understanding and knowing some stuff as you've said I think also. If you are, if you do have a workplace where there are, maybe lots of Muslim people working there just doing some sort of strategic thinking and planning about how is the best way to communicate or and how, equally, how do the Muslim world communicate with each other. Is it a collectivist culture or an individualistic culture? What's their feeling on power, distance or hierarchy? And some of those sorts of things so that you can speak to those concepts and values, when you are presenting to a group. And I guess those might be a couple of interesting questions around collectivism and hierarchy, power distance. Where is the Muslim culture typically on those two aspects of cultural values?

Hend:

Yeah. There's also understand that the Muslims are diverse. So there are like 2 billion Muslims around the world. Yes. So don't go with assumptions, just get to know the people that yep. That who are your colleagues or who are part of your team. Just don't, just because one Muslim does something in a specific way doesn't mean that every Muslim will do it the same way. There are, of course, there are for every practicing Muslim there, the five pillars of Islam, which they try and do, but the, but then there's different ways of doing things as well. And yeah. For one person, something will be negotiable for another. It won't be, it will definitely be non-negotiable. For example, yes, shaking hands. Many Muslim women won't, but some will. So you can't just say, because this Muslim woman shakes hand, then why don't you shake hand? It's

Greg:

yeah. Like that. Yeah. And wearing hijab and other. Other other values and norms. Yeah, I totally appreciate that that stereotyping is, something that we have to be mindful of or not stereotyping by saying that's what it is. I think one of the other groups that you are involved in that we haven't mentioned was the Islamic Women's Council of New Zealand.

Hend:

Yep. So I've, I pre presented a few times my PhD research findings at their conferences and they create a safe space for Muslim women. And raise awareness. Recently I've just partici, I'm working closely with them on She Thrives, which is a three part workshops for Muslim women aged 18 to 30 years old, and it's to prepare them for the workplace to provide them with skills. And strategies, but also to create these opportunities for them to build their sisterhood and grow their network.

Greg:

Is that called She Thrives? Was it?

Hend:

Yeah.

Greg:

Okay. Is there, and we can there's a link that we could put up for that somewhere. Is there a website or a

Hend:

yeah, there's a link because it's I mean it's finishing up now, but if I can give you a link and it has some, a bit of information about the different workshops that we've done together.

Greg:

Yeah. Sure. Great. And I guess just while we're talking about some of the groups you've been involved in, I mentioned right at the beginning the the Women of Color and Public Sector Network. Tell us a little bit about that group.

Hend:

Yeah, so I'm the founder of the Women of Color in the Public Sector Network. And that's a network for women of color within the public sector to, it's a safe space for them to connect and support one another and thrive together. We launched last year, but we were on a journey for about three years to get to that launch. I've served as the co-chair for a while and I stepped down just early this year, and we have two new co-chairs who are leading. We have something called the Concrete Ceiling campaign, which we're raising awareness about the issues that women of color face in the workplace.'cause we know from research that Pākehā women face the glass ceiling, but for women of color or for women from diverse backgrounds it's a concrete ceiling. And we believe that through sisterhood, allyship, and advocacy, we can break that ceiling. And what the, we have events and activities to promote that. And we're working with different networks. So we've had an event with the Woman of Color Network at the University of Auckland, we're collaborating with the Government Women's Network, which is another employee led network.

Greg:

Nice. Nice. And I guess we could we could finish off with just a bit of a plug for Zaki Consulting and you've mentioned the course that, that I've attended and I know you do a few others. Yeah. Just do you wanna talk about talk about those services that you offer?

Hend:

Yeah. Thank you Greg. And thank you for attending the workshop. So I do have a workshop on Islam, Muslims, and identity, and I take you on a journey on that, which is I provide some basic information about Islam, then about some of the challenges and opportunities that exist. And then we look at strategies, how you need to, what you can do in the workplace to create that inclusive environment for Muslims. So that's one thing is the cross-cultural understanding that I do through my consulting. The other thing is, helping leaders create inclusive environments. So I have a program called the Rahma Leadership Program, and Rahma means Compassion in Arabic. And it's a 12 week program to help leaders create that inclusive and thriving environment in the workplace. It's this it's 12 weeks and it consists of six workshops on things like understanding what is compassionate leadership, what is ingroup and outgroup dynamics, how do you create a learning culture? And I'm collaborating with a few facilitators who combine the academic background and the practical experience to deliver that workshop. One other program I have is the we thrive together. And that's for women from diverse ethnic backgrounds. And again, this is a 12 week program to help them learn how to navigate the workplace and how to thrive. It touches on things like leadership, communication skills. How do you grow your network? And again, I'm collaborating with other facilitators to deliver that program. So these are the kind of services I provide. So the focus is on inclusive leadership, Inclusive and compassionate leadership, Cross-cultural understanding, building meaningful connections in the workplace.

Greg:

Nice. I guess just as we wrap up, how's, what's your feeling around New Zealand's development in accepting, being inclusive towards Muslims that are now, all throughout New Zealand, is, do you feel that things are getting better, moving, not moving, staying static? What are your observations?

Hend:

I think generally there's the, there's some understanding, but it could be more. That's done to raise awareness. And it's different from one organization to the other. It's different from one person to the other. So I've met people who are very aware, very culturally competent. I've met people where there's some room for improvement.

Greg:

So yeah. I guess as I was asking that, the other thing I was thinking about was something that you talked to me about with I think the maybe people like your generation and younger who are now creating a almost a dual culture of this sort of this mix of Western and Muslim. And I guess following certain aspects of both is, and that seems to be becoming a little bit more the way things are going, I suppose with people that, that move to a Western country. Is that typical.

Hend:

Definitely people are have multiple identities, whether you're Muslim or non-Muslim, you're always, but with my research is that there is an emergence of Western Muslim identities. So there's Muslims who are born or raised in this country who see themselves in New Zealander, in New Zealanders, or Muslim or New Zealand, Muslim and ethnic identity the workplace needs to be prepared for that. So there is room for improvement. Because people are gonna be going into the workplaces having all these identities. And if you want them to thrive, if you want them to be their best self at work, to do their best work, the place needs to be accepting of all these identities. You can't just be one person at work and one person at home, and you have to be comfortable and you have to see the workplace as accepting in order for you to be able to thrive. So the more workplaces realize that creating an inclusive environment is actually, yes, it's the right thing to do, but it's actually also the profitable thing to do.

Greg:

A perfect ending to get the the Chief Executives of New Zealand to start listening and use that word profitable because that seems to drive a lot of decision making, and if we can somehow prove. More. I think there's plenty of evidence out there, but prove that that diversity is is good for profitability. Then we'll all be in a better place. Thanks so much for your time. It's been great to have you on the show. And just to, to catch up again and and learn some learn from some of your research and some of your experiences. And yeah, just appreciate you putting the time aside to have a chat.

Hend:

Thank you so much, Greg. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Greg:

What a thought provoking conversation with Hend. We covered a lot of ground from hijab and handshakes to halal food and prayer rooms and how these realities impact Muslims at work every single day. What's clear is that workplaces can't just rely on general diversity policies. To ensure people fell seen and supported organizations need to embed inclusion into their systems, their leadership, and their everyday interactions. What stood out most to me in this conversation was just how much inclusion depends on curiosity, the kind that moves beyond surface level gestures and into real cultural understanding. Hend's experiences and research highlight that meaningful inclusion for Muslim doesn't just happen by accident, it requires intention, humility, and structure. Here are five key lessons and actions for health and safety professionals and other workplace leaders to build more inclusive environments for their Muslim colleagues. Firstly. Belonging doesn't come from appearance, it comes from acceptance. What can you do about that? You can build real connection by getting to know your team personally. Inclusion is felt when people are treated as whole individuals, not stereotypes Secondly, visibility of difference must not lead to isolation. Educate staff on diversity within Islam and avoid assumptions, foster curiosity over judgment, especially around topics like hijab, prayer and gender dynamics. Third, support cultural need through systems, not just goodwill. So you can formalize accommodations in onboarding kits and HR policies such as prayer spaces, flexibility during Ramadan halal foods at events. Don't rely on employees having to ask. A fourth key takeaway is respect goes beyond handshakes, normalize alternative greetings. Teach teams that gestures like placing a hand on the heart are respectful and rooted in religious values, not just a sign of disengagement. And lastly, psychological safety requires cultural intelligence. Train our leaders to recognize unconscious bias and ingroup or outgroup dynamics. Understand how stereotypes and media narratives may silently shape workplace behavior. So we've come to the end of this episode, thanks so much for listening. I hope you found something valuable that you can take away that might enhance aspects of your own cultural intelligence. I'll add the transcript from the episode to the show notes. If you'd like to talk about cultural intelligence, get in touch with me via LinkedIn. I'm posting content regularly, so keep an eye on your feed and comment if you see something that resonates. If we aren't connected, send me an invite. If you want to hear more about CQ, you can follow and subscribe to this podcast, I would really appreciate it if you did that, and keep an eye out for the next episode. Ma te wa..